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Is burst fire and Full Auto that important?

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GromHellscream

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« on: <05-19-15/1058:03> »
I have heard from many people on these boards that there is no sense in playing a character with the pistols skill, because you need to have at least a machine pistol to be effective in combat against mooks above rating 3 or 4. I want to know if people agree with this or not. Would the Ares Viper Slivergun or Savalette Guardian be more viable given their burst fire option?

Kincaid

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« Reply #1 on: <05-19-15/1133:48> »
Reducing defense dice is a very potent ability and Automatics is, in many ways, the most versatile ranged combat skill out there.  That said, it's hard to put six slugs into someone and do it quietly, so having other options can be useful.
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Vibral

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« Reply #2 on: <05-19-15/1139:09> »
-9 to someone's dodge dice pool is unfathomably helpful. especially if you have a small dice pool to begin with. Recoil Comp is relatively cheap to get and can make all the difference in the world. Even a well built "Dodge Monkey" is going to have a lot of trouble dodging when they are out 4-9 dice.

GromHellscream

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« Reply #3 on: <05-19-15/1306:06> »
I know that shadowrun is very different from today, but could someone give me a guideline for general legality of carrying firearms in say Seattle in 2075? I feel that the laws controlling them should be a balancing point. Granted each GM will have their own view.

Novocrane

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« Reply #4 on: <05-19-15/1338:02> »
If you can find a copy of 1st edition Sprawl Sites, there is a comprehensive list of weapon legalities and offences.

Reaver

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« Reply #5 on: <05-19-15/1549:32> »
If you look at the Availability of the weapon, it gives you an idea of the legality of the weapon.

If there is just a " - ", then the item in question is legal to own.

If there is an " R " then the item is "restricted" and needs a permit for.

If there is an " F", then the item is Forbidden. And No, you can not get a permit for it.


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BetaCAV

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« Reply #6 on: <05-19-15/2027:23> »
If there is an " F", then the item is Forbidden. And No, you can not get a permit for it.
Which is why you want to have/buy extra certified credsticks, and keep them on hand.
You still can't take your Panther Assault Cannon for a walk downtown, but you might walk away with your maglock passkey and a warning, if your character plays it right.

Reaver

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« Reply #7 on: <05-19-15/2035:39> »
Or, its just as likely to get you shot first, followed by a "Police, Freeze!".

After all. It IS an anti-tank weapon :P
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Kincaid

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« Reply #8 on: <05-19-15/2155:03> »
I so love it when a sam with no social skills has a fake SIN that ties the scanner's roll.
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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #9 on: <05-19-15/2331:03> »
That said using a MP good luck actually dealing damage to many targets as the lack of AP will mean they'll just bounce right off someone dressed in even an Armor Jacket.

Honestly when it comes to handguns there's no 'best' option.

Holdouts: Ridiculously easy to conceal (especially the Streetline Special) and fit perfectly into that 'better than nothing' category.

Tasers: Almost if not as easy to conceal. Sure they only do Stun damage but the electrical AP and side effects make them another great backup option.

Light Pistols: A great option for covert ops, slip a suppressor on one of these and they'll have a hard time knowing who to shoot back at (especially the Ares LightFire 75)

Heavy Pistols: Bang for buck in a package you've got a hope of concealing. The Ares Predator V and Ruger Super Warhawk are a staple "slot off!" gun of choice, having the damage and AP to actually get through moderate armor.

Machine Pistols: Spray and pray in a package that with some training you might even be able to hide. Sure they've got no AP so useless against anything stouter than an Armorerd Vest, but the ability to go from looking like you're unarmed to laying down Suppressing Fire has its own technical advantages.

Another thing people forget is ranges, Machine Pistols use Light Pistol ranges. I would contend that a pistoleer bio-adept could be quite deadly in most situations, especially if they're Ambidextrous and focus on dice pools to land shots with both handguns. That said, even Ruger Super Warhawks firing APDS rounds are going to start to struggle against anything much heavier than an armored jacket.
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Magnaric

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« Reply #10 on: <05-20-15/1237:38> »
I know this has been using 5E rules, and while I currently GM 4E and I'm not trying to derail the discussion, I feel like I should add my 2¥. NOTE; I'm going to use 4E rules since that's what I'm familiar with, but I know the general principle of what I'm saying should still apply. If it's totally off the mark though, feel free to correct me or point out that it's not strictly relevant to 5E.

In general in my games regular street level Gangers and nooks would wear an armour vest or jacket at most, with only corporate or private security/police wearing heavier gear regularly. Likewise, they likely only carry light street weapons, handguns and shotguns and maybe the occasional smg. This will be relevant later.

Assuming a Runner is decent with a pistol, it has a Smartlink, and the enemy is moderately tough with an armour vest, you're probably looking at 8-12 dice to hit vs 3-5 to react and anywhere from 8-15 to soak the damage. So even with a Predator and it's -1 a and 5p damage base, they stand to soak a decent portion, or turn the damage to stun because of their armour rating. Again, 4E, convert to 5E as needed.

But here's the thing. A Runner using explosive rounds, which are pretty easy to acquire from a reliable arms dealer, or modifying the pistol for 3 round bursts, is going to increase that damage output decently. Hell, just carry a Predator with regular ammo abd the apprproate faje license, but if you can get them hide a clip of ADPS rounds in your shirt/jacket/crotch povket/etc. For special occasions. You've now turned your regular, everypne-has-one pistol into an armour-shredding hand cannon.

Likewise, if you know the enemy is wearing a bulletproof vest, pouring shot after shot into his torso is pretty damn ineffective, and the mark of an amateur. Treat armored thugs like zombies; aim for the head. Doesn't really matter how high-tech the armour is if they aren't wearing a helmet, and honestly, even modern day police with ballistic tac-vests don't wear helmets unless they're part of SWAT or specifically dealing with something that warrants a heavily armed response.

I'm not sure about 5E,  but in 4E the rules to target an unarmoured portion were a -armour value do to the attacker. So a vest or jacket would be -6 or -8. But assuming the guy specializes in pistols, he could have an augmented 6 or 7 agility, 5 or 6 skill, Smartlink for +2, and he could even use the one simple action to aim abd then shoot. So with 13 to 15 dice, -8, you're still looking at 5 to 8 dice vs their reaction. Chances are you'll hit, and a shot to the face will make anyone have a bad day, even Trolly McBrickshithouse. Especially with specialized ammo.

Again, I'm aware 5E has limits to prevent the 4E exploding dice pool issue, but I'm sure similar situations and possibilities apply.

The long-winded point is this. Pistols aren't always as good for sheer damage as assault rifles or the like, but in the hands of someone who knows how to use them effectively, they can still be damn useful. And a Shadowrunner walking down the street with only a pistol will be much less noticed than carrying a big ass murdergun. And that clip of highly-illegal and highly-effective ADPS rounds for "special occasioms"? Easy to hide that pretty much anywhere.

There's a reason even modern military carry sidearms with multiple clips along with their main weapons. For long ranges or heavily armored targets, you'll have a hard time if it. But in short, carefully aimed and targeted shots, or in close ranges, or both, they can be extremely effective.

Again, if specifics of 5E rules and limits and such directly contradict or prevent what I'm trying to say, please point it out. But I think the theory still stands.
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Reaver

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« Reply #11 on: <05-20-15/1302:29> »
It boils down to: "The right tool, for the right job"

Pistols are good when you need to be able to conceal the weapon and the opposition is lightly armored.

SMGs are good when you need medium range, medium firepower and are not as concerned about concealing your weapon.

ARs are good when you just need firepower and don't care who sees it....
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Mirikon

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« Reply #12 on: <05-20-15/1313:40> »
As Reaver says.

Also, it depends on just how much of your character is focused on shooting things. For a mage, face, hacker, or rigger, having a pistol makes for a good backup weapon for when they actually get into combat. For a Street Sammy, I'd go with automatics, definitely. It all depends on your role. If you're only going to drop a couple ranks and a specialization into whichever firearm you pick, go with pistols, because they're usually easier to get and often legal to own. And they're very concealable, making them a good fallback for when your normal means of attack isn't working. I have a Combat Mage who primarily uses magic and blades to attack, but has the Pistols skill as well, for those times when he can't risk the Drain, or is in a high background count area.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #13 on: <05-20-15/1431:30> »
Magnaric
Your points do hold up, but only to a certain extent.

1. Both ranged and melee defense in SR5 is Reaction + Intuition, and while skills do go all the way to 12 the cap for starting skills is still 6. This means that most novice runners will have had their ranged attack potential somewhat diminished, as the defender may easily have doubled his defensive pool while the attackers offensive pool may not have increased at all.

2. Armor ratings have significantly increased in SR5; an Armor Vest is AV 9 and an Armor Jacket is AV 12 in SR5, which means that most gangers will have defensive dice pools in the 12+ range, with orks and trolls potentially hitting 20+. That being said, Base DV of weapons have also increased significantly, with a Predator V now having a base DV of 8P, -1 AP.

3. Shooting an unarmored part of a target is an Optional Rule in SR5 (introduced in Run & Gun as RG5, where modified AV applies as a negative dice pool modifier to the attacker). As outlined in the previous points, however, the attackers dice pool has likely not increased significantly while Armor Values have gone up, meaning what used to be a challenging shot (-5 to -8) has become an almost impossible shot (-9 to -12 or more). AP capabilities makes a big difference if this rule is used, but it is optional.

4. Burst Fire under core rules do not have an option to increase DV like they did in 4th Edition (narrow  bursts); this ability was reintroduced in Run & Gun, with a 3-round burst increasing DV by 1, and a 6-round burst increasing DV by 2. These are significantly lower than the increases DV of +2 and +5 as per the 4th Edition, and as far as I know there is no Narrow Full Burst equivalent in SR5 that in SR4 increased damage by +9 DV (+16 for the Avenger Minigun and the like :) ).

To summarize; I agree with your assessment that pistols are still a viable choice, but they are not, in my opinion, quite as potentially powerful as they were in SR4. Their main advantage to my mind is that they can exceedingly concealable, something even a machine pistol will struggle with. I am personally of the opinion that this will be more or less useful depending on the table in question.

Reaver

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« Reply #14 on: <05-20-15/1443:39> »
And its the table that will really matter.

Some GMs are of the opinion that every combat the runners go up against should have a minimum dice throw of 10+, sporting SMGs and security armor with 2 IP.

Other GMs think of street gangers as pond scum, and outfit them in paper clothes and cardboard weapons.

A little talk with the GM about what his views on combat and threat levels are can give you an idea what to expect, and then build to.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.