[Top Dog]

Not to mention that 600 nuyen is actually quite a lot for a single combat. Even in our local prime runner campaign I'm going to think twice on spending that much that freely.

I'm pretty sure every application has it's downsides:

• It's not that powerful with Stunbolt because you can cast that at relatively high force for low drain anyway (and setting it high just in case gets expensive fast)
• It's not that powerful with any Area spell because then the area will be tiny
• It's not that powerful with sustained spells because it makes it trivial to dispel

The only really overpowered scenario would be with a high-drain, single target spell that relies solely on hits for the effect, but those aren't actually that common.

It still has it's uses for the above - using it with sustained spells is usually fine because counterspellers aren't actually that common, for example. But it still has appropriate drawbacks, and still costs a fair bit of money.

[Hibiki54]

Keep in mind that using reagents when casting spells is basically throwing money at a problem.

[Overbyte]

Any time you use "Second Chance" edge with a high drain spell, use of reagents becomes extremely powerful IMO.
You don't have to cast at force 1, and as someone mentioned dispelling your spells is pretty rare and could take multiple actions. Keep in mind the opposition doesn't even t know it's a low force spell unless they assense it. Which takes more time.
The combat spells are actually not the really "broken" uses IMO.

For Example:
Take a Force 5 Chaotic World being thrown by some with a decent pool (say around 15-18 dice). You drop 10 reagents which costs you 200 nuyen and use Second Chance. You probably will get 9-10 hits and the opposition probably gets around 4 and that's IF they have a bunch of spell defense. BOOM. Everyone on the opposition is taking -5 or -6 to all actions right off the bat. Fight is over before it begins.
Or if you like Mob Control and Mob Mind it's instant death for everyone involved as they kill each other.

And since these spells are low force you can sustain them just fine with Focused Concentration or a Spell Sustain Focus.
Even an "normal" spell like Combat Sense suddenly becomes super powerful with 10 unopposed hits.

I find this not to be desirable in my games, so I limit the use of reagents.

[Top Dog]

Take a Force 5 Chaotic World being thrown by some with a decent pool (say around 15-18 dice). You drop 10 reagents which costs you 200 nuyen and use Second Chance. You probably will get 9-10 hits and the opposition probably gets around 4 and that's IF they have a bunch of spell defense. BOOM. Everyone on the opposition is taking -5 or -6 to all actions right off the bat. Fight is over before it begins.

Until they move out of the 5 meter radius zone and stop being affected. And that's assuming you can hit everyone with a 5 meter radius spell.

I mean, it's powerful, yes. I use a similar tactic often enough, and it's usually quite effective. But it costs a point of edge, ánd 200 nuyen - it's supposed to be. Many characters can do fight-defining things with a decent application of Edge.

Mob Control is nice, but the extra hits don't add that much in the typical fight - once you cast it at a high enough force, it'd be over before they can break free anyway.

You have a point about Combat Sense though. It is most powerful for sustained spells - because it becomes so much easier to sustain, and the drawback is less important.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Using reagents profusely quickly get very costly.

A single dram costs 20¥, which may not seem like much. But, when you're regularly casting at Force 1 with a limit of 5 or 6, that's 100 to 120¥. That's the same as 10 rounds of APDS or EX-Explosive rounds, or 3 Assault Cannon rounds, or 1 frag or HE grenade.

Reagents can be highly effective for spells with single-target effects. For spells whose effects are based in some way, shape, or form on Force; not so much. Overbyte's suggestion of Edge + Reagents may win you a battle, but those kinds of tactics are likely to get you noticed somehow because that's a lot of astral signatures to clean up.

[Senko]

I rather like medicineman's houserule.

[White_Ghost]

Until they move out of the 5 meter radius zone and stop being affected. And that's assuming you can hit everyone with a 5 meter radius spell.

Actually, since it's a direct spell, the effect persists even if the targets move outside the area. The effect ends when the targets get enough hits on their resist check, as per the illusion rules.

Having played 3rd and 4th, I've found that the changes to direct/indirect spells brought them more in line with game balance. Direct gives automatic damage with little chance to resist, and indirect are more powerful than sniper rifles at high levels. It prevented 'Magicrun' which is unfortunately what we had in prior editions.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, so far as I've seen it's been quickly replaced by Adeptrun.

[Top Dog]

Until they move out of the 5 meter radius zone and stop being affected. And that's assuming you can hit everyone with a 5 meter radius spell.

Actually, since it's a direct spell, the effect persists even if the targets move outside the area. The effect ends when the targets get enough hits on their resist check, as per the illusion rules.

Having played 3rd and 4th, I've found that the changes to direct/indirect spells brought them more in line with game balance. Direct gives automatic damage with little chance to resist, and indirect are more powerful than sniper rifles at high levels. It prevented 'Magicrun' which is unfortunately what we had in prior editions.

Wait, what? Where did you get that from?

As I read it, Direct/Indirect is only a thing for Combat spells. There is nothing in the Illusion rules about getting enough hits on resist checks later (that's only a Mental Manipulation thing).

[White_Ghost]

Until they move out of the 5 meter radius zone and stop being affected. And that's assuming you can hit everyone with a 5 meter radius spell.

Actually, since it's a direct spell, the effect persists even if the targets move outside the area. The effect ends when the targets get enough hits on their resist check, as per the illusion rules.

Having played 3rd and 4th, I've found that the changes to direct/indirect spells brought them more in line with game balance. Direct gives automatic damage with little chance to resist, and indirect are more powerful than sniper rifles at high levels. It prevented 'Magicrun' which is unfortunately what we had in prior editions.

Wait, what? Where did you get that from?

As I read it, Direct/Indirect is only a thing for Combat spells. There is nothing in the Illusion rules about getting enough hits on resist checks later (that's only a Mental Manipulation thing).

You're totally right, I mistook chaotic world for a manipulation spell. I think you may be right on the AOE, I don't see anything that says it persists after the target leaves. (which I would assume physical spells fall under) but for mana illusions I would probably rule that it's still in their minds. What do you think?

[Top Dog]

I'm pretty sure it's the same rules-wise - if they move out, they're no longer affected.

Mana confusion-like spells don't really need a buff in comparison to the Physical version either.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

True, it was just an example of how it theoretically can be misused, maybe not the best example though.

In an Infinite Universe all theoretical possibilities have to happen through quantum mathematics... that doesn't make them ever a relevant to in reality. Magic 12 + Spellcasting (Combat spells) 12(+2) + Power Focus 12.... to throw consistently and get 10 hits for you Force 1 spell with reagents. Congrats you are a Great Dragon have won Shadowrun, now roll up a new character and restart the fun!

[Marcus]

Thats my opinion as well that it's very overpowered and somewhat silly as well. The Whole reagents Things Works very well when the effects are based somewhat on force, but when they aren't based on force but rather on just hits using reagents very easily becomes a way of breaking the game. Just imagine casting 3 force 1 manabolts at the same time and using ten reagents on each. So in effect you just cast 3 force ten manabolts at the same time for a measly 600 nuyen with drain that is relatively easily handled and it's extremely hard to notice to boot. That would relatively easily insta-kill most targets
@Medicineman: That houserule sounds interesting, i might give that a try.

Btw thanks for all the responses Guys.

If this was possible we would have seen it by now. No one can get that many spellcasting dice.
Indirect even with the run faster buff still lags behind direct, and this is in an edition where armor has become stronger then it possibly has ever been before.

Magic is lagging a little in 5th, I contribute this in part to SG being pretty fail, but mostly to the devs working very hard to push tech.
5th thus far is the decker edition of SR, which is fair given that 4th edition was certainly the nadir for deckers. I don't expect  to see much change in this state of affairs. Even lagging magic is still totally viable, and it's far better off then Technos, and riggers.
 

[Reaver]

Part of it too Marcus, is that the greatest compliant that came up over SR was that the magic was too powerful.... to the point it was often called "Magerun"


Balancing tech and magic, two directly opposite things, never makes everyone happy.

[Senko]

Yep if magic is too powerful you get the pathfinder complaint of "martials can't have nice things" but if tech's too powerful you get "Why play a mage when my most powerful combat spells do less damage than a cheap grenade". Even trying to match things up so you have a range from X (cheap, single shot, shoddy pistol and basic combat spells) to Y (tactical nukes and top end, military only combat spells or spell rituals probably in this system) are going to have somneone unhappy with how they were "balanced".