[Tarislar]

Training Time for a Level-1 skill is only 1 day, so those 13 skill points would take 2 weeks to accomplish at Logic-2.

The big issue is when its Rank-5+ and its weeks per skill, then having Logic-3+ is VERY useful so you are training them at the same time instead of in a row.

[Hobbes]

Training Time for a Level-1 skill is only 1 day, so those 13 skill points would take 2 weeks to accomplish at Logic-2.

The big issue is when its Rank-5+ and its weeks per skill, then having Logic-3+ is VERY useful so you are training them at the same time instead of in a row.

In addition to the 2 weeks it also requires 13 "downtime periods".  So 13 runs, plus two weeks. 

P. 105
" If the character chooses to focus on improving only skills during a downtime, the character may choose to learn or improve a number of skills up to their Logic rating divided by 2 (round up). "

So, Logic 1 or Logic 2 you can only learn or improve one skill per downtime, basically, per run.   

And you don't train multiple skills at the same time, each skill takes whatever days/weeks.  So if you've got two different skills that are going to take a week each, you need two weeks of downtime.  The Logic/2 limit really means nothing once you get to higher skill levels and you're spending 10+ Karma and weeks to train.  Heck, it becomes basically meaningless once you're buying skills from 1 to 2 if you're getting around 6 karma per run.  Just this tiny little window where it's annoying as hell, then suddenly meaningless.  Like virginity. 

[Kiirnodel]

A character may raise the Rating of their Active, Knowledge, or Language skills up by a maximum of 3 rating points per any one downtime. To raise the skill(s) any further, they have to wait for another period of downtime.

The Logic/2 is the number of skills you can train simultaneously, but you can train as many of them sequentially as you like. You are just limited to raising each one up by 3 max.

[FasterN8]

So, Logic 1 or Logic 2 you can only learn or improve one skill per downtime, basically, per run.   

And you don't train multiple skills at the same time, each skill takes whatever days/weeks.  So if you've got two different skills that are going to take a week each, you need two weeks of downtime. 

I always assumed the one physical/one mental limit on attributes was simultaneous as well as the Logic/2 limit when dedicating yourself to skill training, but to your point, the text never actually says "simultaneously". 

However, after rereading the section on pg 105 I still think those training times are simultaneous because of the way the distinctions are made for training skill groups and specializations.  For skill groups: "A character ... cannot learn or improve any other attributes the same time"  And for specializations: "Specializations ... cannot be learned at the same time as anything else."  It's kind of a proof by negation.  If these two cases are special because they can't do other training "at the same time", then the norm must be to train things at the same time as each other.

I can see how you could interpret it that way, but if that were the case I think they would have said "in the same downtime" for the restrictions on specializations and skill groups instead of restricting them with the wording "at the same time".  Also, FWIW most educational institutions have students take several classes at the same time so the simultaneous learning thing doesn't strike me as too far fetched.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

So, Logic 1 or Logic 2 you can only learn or improve one skill per downtime, basically, per run.   

And you don't train multiple skills at the same time, each skill takes whatever days/weeks.  So if you've got two different skills that are going to take a week each, you need two weeks of downtime. 

I always assumed the one physical/one mental limit on attributes was simultaneous as well as the Logic/2 limit when dedicating yourself to skill training, but to your point, the text never actually says "simultaneously". 

However, after rereading the section on pg 105 I still think those training times are simultaneous because of the way the distinctions are made for training skill groups and specializations.  For skill groups: "A character ... cannot learn or improve any other attributes the same time"  And for specializations: "Specializations ... cannot be learned at the same time as anything else."  It's kind of a proof by negation.  If these things two cases are special because they can't do other training "at the same time", then the norm must be to train things at the same time as each other.

I can see how you could interpret it that way, but if that were the case I think they would have said "in the same downtime" for the restrictions on specializations and skill groups instead of restricting them with the wording "at the same time".  Also, FWIW most educational institutions have students take several classes at the same time so the simultaneous learning thing doesn't strike me as too far fetched.

FasterN8 totally won this debate... his point about the stated negatives of Specialization & Skill Groups thereby proves the standard for which all others functions. If those CAN'T be trained with other skills than by definition everything else can be trained at the same time.

Gotta love Logical Assertions!

[prionic6]

This is my quick reference list:

Training concurrently, pick one:

* One mental and one physical attribute
* One attribute and one skill
* (Logic / 2) skills
* Skill specialization
* Skill group

[Hobbes]

A character may raise the Rating of their Active, Knowledge, or Language skills up by a maximum of 3 rating points per any one downtime. To raise the skill(s) any further, they have to wait for another period of downtime.

The Logic/2 is the number of skills you can train simultaneously, but you can train as many of them sequentially as you like. You are just limited to raising each one up by 3 max.

If that is the design intent then the one sentence that mentions the Logic/2 limit is ... I'll say, poorly written.  Because it doesn't actually say the things you say at all.  *shrug*

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the design intent was very different from what the rule actually says because "...during a downtime.." is a bit of nonsense if there is already a time requirement for training.  However, there really isn't a lot of linguistic wiggle room in the sentence that defines the limit. 

Logically it makes no sense, because you can train the exact same number of skills during a six month down time as a two day downtime.  Which is why the rule stuck in my head.  It's very silly, and likely doesn't actually say what the RAI was. 

[welldressedgent]

Seems like you could also train during runs, if you were driving a lot or spending lots of time on the matrix.

-g

[Whiskeyjack]

Because almost all of our characters (except the hyper-specialized mage) purchase many ancillary skills after chargen at low ranks (below 6) this has become the go to quality for everyone on the group.

Table experience isn't data. It's hard to make a blanket statement like this into "JoaT is the best quality in the game."

I rank things like Codeslinger, Quick Healer, and RiM higher for that reason - regardless of build or table style, they will have incredible utility. JoaT is dependent on a particular play style which I wouldn't say is "the norm."

[Overbyte]

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the design intent was very different from what the rule actually says because "...during a downtime.." is a bit of nonsense if there is already a time requirement for training.  However, there really isn't a lot of linguistic wiggle room in the sentence that defines the limit. 
Logically it makes no sense, because you can train the exact same number of skills during a six month down time as a two day downtime.  Which is why the rule stuck in my head.  It's very silly, and likely doesn't actually say what the RAI was.

I gotta agree. The whole "per downtime" idea is total nonsense for the reasons you state.

[happybjorn]

The whole "per downtime" thing is common in many games.  One of the intents (because there are many) is that it discourages karma (or xp or whatever) hoarding. 

Table experience isn't data. It's hard to make a blanket statement like this into "JoaT is the best quality in the game."

I rank things like Codeslinger, Quick Healer, and RiM higher for that reason - regardless of build or table style, they will have incredible utility. JoaT is dependent on a particular play style which I wouldn't say is "the norm."

Indeed.  It would seem that math could give a more objective take on the value of JoaT, since its apparent benefit is karma efficiency..  It is difficult to value its drawbacks though, like not having necessary skills while hoping to get them at a discount later.

My best guess (since the math would be build specific) is that it favors skills E bioadepts (a bias I believe the OP has) and shorter chronicle duration.  For a specialist or game running for years it seems like it would be terrible.

[Whiskeyjack]

I would say if your skill is at 6, there's not a whole lot gained by plinking away at raising it much further, especially given Limits. For magical characters, the best use of karma is initiation, Magic increase, and/or gaining more spells. Same for TMs with their Resonance stuff. Now, for mundanes, at a certain point you probably have more than enough 1-2 rank skills to round yourself out and probably will start turning those 6s into 7s etc, but that's more out of a lack of anything else to do with the karma aside from buying Edge.

[adzling]

This!

I would say if your skill is at 6, there's not a whole lot gained by plinking away at raising it much further, especially given Limits. For magical characters, the best use of karma is initiation, Magic increase, and/or gaining more spells. Same for TMs with their Resonance stuff. Now, for mundanes, at a certain point you probably have more than enough 1-2 rank skills to round yourself out and probably will start turning those 6s into 7s etc, but that's more out of a lack of anything else to do with the karma aside from buying Edge.

[Jack_Spade]

Jack of all Trades front loads a character: You get a discount at the the beginning of your career but you have to pay interest later.
As long as you aren't going higher than 7 with a skill you save karma. If you max one skill to 12 you pay 9 karma more than a character without this quality.
So for every maxed skill you'd need to invest into two skills that you only advance to 5 to still be profitable.
That actually doesn't sound to bad.
Especially if you consider that you probably want to increase your attributes first and that there are lots and lots of qualities that will also improve your dice pools.

Adepts love this quality even more: They can instead initiate and improve their skills through improved ability (which is probably cheaper than raising them normally - especially if you get your skills into qi-foci: 12 karma for a lvl. 6 focus 

[happybjorn]

And just how many different skills do you want your character to invest in?  Is it more than they would have been able to take with priority A or B in skills?  The part I'm having trouble understanding is how is the PQ so valuable when its value appears to be in karma efficiency and getting the most out of it requires making extremely (karma) inefficient choices with priorities (assuming skills D or E).  Are there even enough skills to make up for that difference?

Don't get me wrong, I can see great value to the team in taking 3-4 points in skills for teamwork tests or just to a few point here and there to round out a character or not have to default on rolls (or even be able to make them).  JoaT also looks more appealing for Troll/Ork/Dwarf metatypes in priority chargen.