[Lodestar]

Hey, chummers.

I've GMed one session already and was a real good time, but I found interesting the Call a Shot thing.

So the guy Call a Shot to the Head. He gets -4 and rolls. He normaly has 14 dices, 10 now. 10 dice pool is a good pool of dices. He usually hits. An Ares Predator V has 8P damage and AP-1. The Dwarf who got shot in the head has only Body 4 and no helmet (despite his riot armor that goes for 14 (18 total armor). So he's getting 9P mininum damage against a Body of 3 (AP -1). The minimum is almost lethal.

Is that correct? Is it so easy to get a headshot?

I'm not asking for the bad guys' sake. I'm actually worry about the players when I'm doing it the other way around, since they've being jumping from the bushes over the baddies, when the baddies do the same, a player will be sad as his character drops with a roomsweeper shot in the face.

I've being researching and found some rules... like, there is no such thing as a head shot. You just can add +1 to +4 DV for an equally loss in the dice pool, I've also seen (can't remember where) you may forgo 2 from the dice pool for an AP -1, and you can do this as many time as needed.

So... what is it?

-4 Attack to the head?

+4 DV, -4 Attack? (it kinda sounds OP, but it has a limit, so, go figure. I say OP, because you can garantee damage instead of rolling to add the net hits to the damage)

AP -1, -2 Attack? (this sounds more realistic to me, since aiming for a soft spot only negates armor, the "hit on a critical place" thing can be interpreted by the number of success).

I'm atcually liking the idea of using the last two. What do you guys have in mind about this?

For example: I have dice pool 14 and I'm shooting at a spirit, and to overcome its Hardened Armor (is that the name?) I need AP -3. With my Ares Predator V, I already have AP -1, So, I'm losing 4 from the dice pool to get AP -3, and plus I want to get more damage on it, so I choose to lose 2 more from the dice pool. So, I'm rolling 8 dices, for a 10P (from the 8P of the Ares) with AP -3. Does it sound real to you guys?

And, again. Can a dual gun wielder call the shots like that, since it is a free action to call a shot? He doesn't need an Aim Action, right? And, for the dual part, he could only Call a Shot for one of the guns, right?

Edit: I'm trying to understand grenades as well. Pretty harsh. Frags say 18P, AP+5 and -1/m.

What I understood from those numbers (and reading the rules). The people in the blast role +5 for Armor to resist the damage, and I assume for every meter away from the blast, you reduce 1 from the 18P, right? So the blast 18m radius, right? I'm not considering the scatter factor yet, just want to know the blast area. I didn't find a number anywhere in the book.

And, for the scatter. It states a threshold of 3 to get the grenade where you want to be, but later on, in the scatter part, it says you roll 1d6 - hits as meters to success the dead center of the blast, as I get 2 from the 1d6 (scattering 2 meters away in any directiong the 2d6 determines) and hits for 2 (less then 3, so the scatter rolls), since it is 2 - 2, I got it dead center anyways. So, what's up with the 3 threshold. And how the fuck can a chummer miss a rocket for 5d6 meters? like, at maximum, he could miss for a 30 meters? What if he's shooting from 25 meters. Missing for a 30 meters is like shooting to the side and not even straight.

So, I believe I'm missing the point for the grenade thing rules.

[Medicineman]

So the guy Call a Shot to the Head. He gets -4 and rolls. He normaly has 14 dices, 10 now. 10 dice pool is a good pool of dices.

You should reread what you can do with a called Shot.
 you can either use it (-4 Dice) to raise damage by +2
but the Victim keeps his Armor Dice
OR
You use a Called Shot to hit an Unprotected Part with as many - Dice as the Victim has Armor( -12 with an Armored Jacket f.E.) THAN the Victim has only his Body

-4 Attack to the head?

+4 DV, -4 Attack? (it kinda sounds OP, but it has a limit, so, go figure. I say OP, because you can garantee damage instead of rolling to add the net hits to the damage)

Kinda but don't call it to the Head if its -4 its ....To hurt moore (DV+2)
If it would be ....to an unprotected spot (like a Head) it would be - Armor 

With a called Dance
Medicineman

[Lodestar]

So the guy Call a Shot to the Head. He gets -4 and rolls. He normaly has 14 dices, 10 now. 10 dice pool is a good pool of dices.

You should reread what you can do with a called Shot.
 you can either use it (-4 Dice) to raise damage by +2
but the Victim keeps his Armor Dice
OR
You use a Called Shot to hit an Unprotected Part with as many - Dice as the Victim has Armor( -12 with an Armored Jacket f.E.) THAN the Victim has only his Body

-4 Attack to the head?

+4 DV, -4 Attack? (it kinda sounds OP, but it has a limit, so, go figure. I say OP, because you can garantee damage instead of rolling to add the net hits to the damage)

Kinda but don't call it to the Head if its -4 its ....To hurt moore (DV+2)
If it would be ....to an unprotected spot (like a Head) it would be - Armor 

With a called Dance
Medicineman

So he can call a shot to the head with -4 and simply ignore the armor jacket. The target will only roll his Body, then? Pretty lethal for just a -4 in the dice pool.

Again, an Ares Alpha. It has only -1 to get a target at 150m. So I'm calling a shot to the head (-4). At the end, from 150m, I only have -5 to get a naked head in my sight, and that is only for a free action?

Lethal and fast.

Now, if you're aiming straight for a couple of rounds, it would sound more legit.

What you think, pal?

I'm not worry about the baddies, as I said before. It will be a real bummer when Max, the Smart Decker, get a head shot from 100m.

[Reaver]

For the called shot, the shooter has 2 options:

1: -4 dice pool for +2 damage.
       That is it. Defender rolls body+armor as normal.
2: take a dice pool modifier equal to the target's armor to IGNORE the armor.
   So if the target is in an Armored Jacket (AR 12), the shooter takes -12 to his dice pool. BUT the defender just gets body.

[Hibiki54]

You should look up Called Shots in SR5 Core pg 195.

The Called Shot your player is doing is called a Called Shot to Vitals. The book explains that all normal shots are considered to be center mass (such as a shot to the chest), and that a -4 Called Shot to Vitals targets a part of the body that is exposed which increases the base DV by +2. Going by the rules in Core, there is no Called Shot to the Head. The shot does not bypass the target's armor. Keep in mind that Called Shots against metahumans and against Vehicles both differ.

If you want more specific called shots, look up the Called Shots in the Run & Gun book

[Medicineman]

So he can call a shot to the head with -4 and simply ignore the armor jacket. The target will only roll his Body, then?

NO HE CAN'T !
And I wrote that he can't !!

What you think, pal?

Go and reread the Rules and what I wrote
or reread Reavers Post (He's writing basically the same I did )

Hough!
Medicineman

[Xenon]

So the guy Call a Shot to the Head.

No such thing, at least not in core
Are you perhaps talking about Called Shot Vitals?

He gets -4 and rolls. He normaly has 14 dices, 10 now.

Correct. That is how Called Shot Vitals work.

An Ares Predator V has 8P damage and AP-1. The Dwarf who got shot in the head has only Body 4 and no helmet (despite his riot armor that goes for 14 (18 total armor). So he's getting 9P mininum damage against a Body of 3 (AP -1). The minimum is almost lethal.

Called Shot Vitals modify Damage Value by +2 from 8P to 10P. The Dwarf have a modified armor value of 18-1=17

Since the modified damage value of 10P is less than the modified armor value of 17 the attack will deal Stun rather than Physical.

The Dwarf will resist 10S (+ net hits) with Body + Modified armor value (4+17=21 dice).

Can a dual gun wielder call the shots like that, since it is a free action to call a shot? He doesn't need an Aim Action, right? And, for the dual part, he could only Call a Shot for one of the guns, right?

To fire both guns in one attack action you take the multiple attacks free action. Since you (at least in core) only have 1 free action you can't fire both weapons and use Called Shot (or Run or....) in the same initiative pass.

people in the blast role +5 for Armor to resist the damage

...but only if they have armor to begin with.

I assume for every meter away from the blast, you reduce 1 from the 18P, right? So the blast 18m radius, right?

Right

And, for the scatter. It states a threshold of 3 to get the grenade where you want to be

Right.
If you get less than the threshold the grenade might scatter.

in the scatter part, it says you roll 1d6 - hits as meters to success the dead center of the blast, as I get 2 from the 1d6 (scattering 2 meters away in any directiong the 2d6 determines) and hits for 2 (less then 3, so the scatter rolls), since it is 2 - 2, I got it dead center anyways.

Right.
And if you rolled 6 with 2 hits it would have scattered 4 meters and if you only had one hit when you rolled 2 it would have scattered 1 meter.

So, what's up with the 3 threshold.

If you reach the threshold then you don't risk scatter.

And how the fuck can a chummer miss a rocket for 5d6 meters? like, at maximum, he could miss for a 30 meters? What if he's shooting from 25 meters. Missing for a 30 meters is like shooting to the side and not even straight.

Who in their right mind would use a rocket launcher against a target just 25 meters away??

So he can call a shot to the head with -4 and simply ignore the armor jacket.

He can Call Shot Vitals.
Increase DV by 2 and reduce dice pool by 4.
You cannot ignore armor by reducing dice pool by 4 (at lest not in core).

[Whiskeyjack]

The important thing to remember is that this game does not describe strict hit locations and hit-location-dependent armor values (by contrast, see Dark Heresy 1e for a game with hit locations, with different body parts having potentially different armor values). Armor is holistic. A helmet adds armor even if a bullet is described as hitting a person in the chest. This is really for the best to prevent OP headshots and also to reduce complexity. Shooting someone in the head, by the RAW, whether as fluff or as a description of Called Shot Vitals, does not allow them to ignore all armor simply because the target is not wearing a helmet.

The system is not meant to be a reality simulator. And the system is lethal enough as-is without allowing shots to the head to bypass armor. Which, I'll restate, is not remotely the RAW. Even looking in Run & Gun, shots that hit, nick, or pass close to sensitive locations such as the neck, ear, or eye aren't inherently more lethal, they just provide ancillary benefits like inflicting blinded, deafened. The most lethal is probably neck as you start to bleed out, but there's no entry for "braincase." It's also notable that these shots have DV limits. So a shot that passes close to the eye can blind a target but also does a max of 1 damage, presumably for balance.

[Top Dog]

You use a Called Shot to hit an Unprotected Part with as many - Dice as the Victim has Armor( -12 with an Armored Jacket f.E.) THAN the Victim has only his Body

That's not a core rule, Medicineman. It's an optional rule from Run & Gun. Unless your GM uses that rule, you can't do that.

Lodestar, like people said, the SR5 called shot rules are an abstraction. Armor always applies, no matter what you're trying to hit (unless you use the abovementioned optional rule). Even with called shots to locations (also from Run & Gun), you still use the full armor rating, no matter the location being used.

You can, as a player, "aim for the head", of course, because this is a roleplaying game. But mechanically, that just means you're doing a Called Shot Vitals (or something similar), which means -4 to attack for +2 DV, with normal armor fully applying. You then do a little thing called "roleplaying" and describe what happens, keeping the player's action in mind for storytelling purposes, without changing the mechanics.

Did your player roll well enough (and the target badly enough) that he does, say, 16 damage, going past Overflow in that one hit? Congratulations, the shot to the head was succesful and killed the target instantly.
Did he roll less and end with, say, 9 damage? You managed to hit the head, dealing a gruesome wound, but didn't actually hit anything vital in there, so the target can still act (although he's not a happy camper).
Did he roll badly, and end with, say, 4 stun damage? You aimed low, hitting the target in a well-protected area instead. Still doing some damage, but nothing too vital.

In all those cases, the process is the same. You roll the attack, apply armor as normal, and apply damage (and related penalties) as normal. The fluff of "shooting to the head" has no mechanical effect. But it may have a roleplaying effect.

[Lodestar]

@Medicineman sorry, mate. I was a little sleepy while reading and didn't see it. Thanks, man. I really like the minus dice pool equals armor to ignore it. Can it be partial? Like -6 to dice pool to ignore 6 armor from the Armor Jacket?

@Xenon now it all makes sense. I once read that stun damage in case you don't overcome the armor.

Grenades seem a lot lethal and hard to miss imo.

Again... you are right, who would launch a missile from 25 meters? A crazy chummer.

Now, how would you guys handle a Force 5 Spirit with no ASPD ammo or any sort of magic? Should I assume the whole operation is doomed if a powerful spirit joins the scene?

[Whiskeyjack]

Now, how would you guys handle a Force 5 Spirit with no ASPD ammo or any sort of magic? Should I assume the whole operation is doomed if a powerful spirit joins the scene?

You can kill spirits without those things. Good weapons and SnS can do the trick. But expect to get hurt doing so.

A GM should not make a habit of throwing multiple things like this at a team incapable of handling them, though.

[Rooks]

Ok how does this work? guys shooting through a rating 6 barrier sticking his hand around the corner shooting whats the mechanics to shoot the guys hand?

[Top Dog]

Now, how would you guys handle a Force 5 Spirit with no ASPD ammo or any sort of magic? Should I assume the whole operation is doomed if a powerful spirit joins the scene?

With a non-AP weapon and regular ammo, an F5 spirit will have 10 armor, around 5 body (depends on type) and 5 autohits from hardened armor. That's equivalent to 30 soak dice. For light pistols, a very hard target - with a base of 7P, you'd need 3 net hits to have even a chance of doing damage, but you'd still do 0 damage if the spirits roll average.

But heavier weapons swing that around quickly. An assault rifle (AP -2) brings it down to 8 armor and 4 autohits, for an equivalent of 25 soak dice - low-level street sam territory. That means that even with 1 net hit you're expected to do around 3 damage after soak. Still nasty for an unprepared group, but not insurmountable. Sniper rifles (including sporting rifles) do better still.

The key is AP. SnS is a good option for any weapon for that reason - a light pistol with SnS will suddenly face 3 autohits, 5 armor and 5 body, which means you're more likely than not to do damage on even a minor hit.

Ok how does this work? guys shooting through a rating 6 barrier sticking his hand around the corner shooting whats the mechanics to shoot the guys hand?

Called Shot to the hand is a -8 penalty, as per Run & Gun. I'd say since it's exposed, there's no further modifiers from cover, assuming it is more or less constantly exposed (if it weaves in and out of cover, it's a different question).

If only using core, you can't hit specific parts of the body, so he's either in cover or not - exposed hand can't be targeted.

[Darzil]

I really like the minus dice pool equals armor to ignore it. Can it be partial? Like -6 to dice pool to ignore 6 armor from the Armor Jacket?

I'd say no. It's probably not that imbalanced, but taking a hard shot to avoid armor entirely is different from can I take a tricky shot to hit a weak bit of armor, which is somehow easier to hit than the places armor isn't.

[Medicineman]

@Medicineman sorry, mate. I was a little sleepy while reading and didn't see it. Thanks, man. I really like the minus dice pool equals armor to ignore it. Can it be partial? Like -6 to dice pool to ignore 6 armor from the Armor Jacket?

No Prob
@ Partial Armor ignore
That's no core or optional Rule but you could use it as a Houserule
but to be Honest I most often use Called Shots for more Damage(Vitals)
I never use the called Shots to an unprotected spot

HougH!
Medicineman