[Overbyte]

Not sure if this has been discussed before so..

From my reading:
Improved Invisibility is a spell that is resisted with Int + Log. If resisted the target gains no benefit. It works against all forms of vision (low-light, thermo, etc).
Physical Camouflage is not resisted and adds -1 to perception rolls, but only against normal vision.

Is this correct?

[Sendaz]

Just remember for the Improved Invisibility that you use the hits scored as the threshold for anyone that resists at a later point.

So it's Int + Logic (Hits on original spellcasting test), meaning a really good roll on the original casting can still stump even a fairly bright viewer.

Even if the viewer makes the roll, the subject they are looking at might remain undetected if she’s good enough with her Sneaking Test.
So yeah if they are walking down the hall they are probably busted, but if they were already moving stealthily while being invisible they might still slip past someone.
Though they of course would not know if this was due to their sneaking or invisibility, so they could had a barely passable casting and still slip past one guard because were being sneaky and decide the spell was probably good enough and walk blatantly down another hall and get caught.

[SpellBinder]

As a Physical, Single Sense, Realistic spell, Physical Camouflage is also resisted the same way as Improved Invisibility.  The benefits are also a -1 to opposed Perception rolls based on the spellcasting's net hits, so the penalty can vary greatly from NPC to NPC.

[Sphinx]

Physical illusions like Improved Invisibility and Physical Camouflage are opposed by Intuition + Logic (for living beings) or Object Resistance (for cameras, drones, etc.). See SR5 p.290.

With Improved Invisibility (SR5 p.291), the effect is all-or-nothing. If the observer's Intuition + Logic Test doesn't generate more hits than the magician's Spellcasting + Magic Test, then the subject of the spell remains invisible. Whether the spell succeeds or fails, the subject can still make a separate Sneaking + Agility vs. Perception + Intuition Opposed Test for the same result. Invisibility gives them two bites at the apple, as it were.

With Physical Camouflage (SG p.111), the net hits from the opposed Spellcasting Test (if any) provide a bonus to the subject's Sneaking + Agility Test. The Sneaking Test is the one that really counts, but the spell can make you better at it.

[Overbyte]

So here's my problem.

If they both allow resistance rolls, and Imp Invis makes you completely unseen to multiple types of vision, whereas Phys Camo adds net hits to your sneaking.. and Imp Invis is F-1 drain while Phys Camo is F drain... isn't Imp Invis better in every single way?

[Reaver]

Yes.

But comes at the cost of a higher drain, and an "all or nothing" effect. Also note that invisibility only works on visual detection. Sonic or vibration detection still sees you just fine. (AKA ultrasound vision and sensors)

Camo spell doesn't imply the same restrictions.... but comes with its own, you must be sneaking...

[Overbyte]

Yes.

But comes at the cost of a higher drain, and an "all or nothing" effect. Also note that invisibility only works on visual detection. Sonic or vibration detection still sees you just fine. (AKA ultrasound vision and sensors)

No. That's my point. Improved Invisibility is LOWER drain.
And "all or nothing" is probably better since if you are sneaking you are still going to get that roll. So you get two rolls (as the previous poster said) which is likely a better deal than a single roll with a small bonus (due to resist).

Camo spell doesn't imply the same restrictions.... but comes with its own, you must be sneaking...

Physical Camouflage ONLY changes your color:
This set of spells colors the subject in a camouflage pattern that matches her surroundings
so by definition it does not affect any of the extended visual senses, so it's more restricted and HIGHER drain.

[Sphinx]

Improved Invisibility provides an alternative to your Sneaking Test. Physical Camouflage makes your Sneaking Test better.

[Overbyte]

Improved Invisibility provides an alternative to your Sneaking Test. Physical Camouflage makes your Sneaking Test better.

Understood. But if both are resisted. Then imagine all things are equal and you get one net hit on both.

Improved Invisibility  will make you completely and totally invisible to the target against all vision types. And has F-1 drain.
Physical Camouflage gives you a +1 to your sneaking against normal vision. And has F drain.

Does this make sense / seem balanced properly?

[Sphinx]

I see your point. The Camouflage spells probably ought to have a lower drain to balance out.

[Reaver]

Wow

I've been reading that as F+1 this whole time....

Too many editions rolling around my head..

[Raven2049]

Physical illusions like Improved Invisibility and Physical Camouflage are opposed by Intuition + Logic (for living beings) or Object Resistance (for cameras, drones, etc.). See SR5 p.290.

With Improved Invisibility (SR5 p.291), the effect is all-or-nothing. If the observer's Intuition + Logic Test doesn't generate more hits than the magician's Spellcasting + Magic Test, then the subject of the spell remains invisible. Whether the spell succeeds or fails, the subject can still make a separate Sneaking + Agility vs. Perception + Intuition Opposed Test for the same result. Invisibility gives them two bites at the apple, as it were.

With Physical Camouflage (SG p.111), the net hits from the opposed Spellcasting Test (if any) provide a bonus to the subject's Sneaking + Agility Test. The Sneaking Test is the one that really counts, but the spell can make you better at it.

Related Question:


If a Security Guard is viewing through a camera and an invisible person walks past it, does the security guard get the Logic + Intuition [IMP Invisibility Hits] test to see him? is there any modifiers?

[Overbyte]

Related Question:

If a Security Guard is viewing through a camera and an invisible person walks past it, does the security guard get the Logic + Intuition [IMP Invisibility Hits] test to see him? is there any modifiers?

No. The camera gets Object Resistance. If the camera succeeds, the camera shows the person so the guard sees him.

[Reaver]

Actually, if someone with invisibility walks past a camera, the camera AUTOMATICALLY sees him as invisibility is a mental spell that doesn't work on tech.

However, if he used Improved Invisibility, then the camera rolls to see if it can spot the mage....

[HP15BS]

Sorry, but I need to res this.

Camouflage really reads like it just takes effect without any resistance whatsoever.

As a Physical, Single Sense, Realistic spell, Physical Camouflage is also resisted the same way as Improved Invisibility.  The benefits are also a -1 to opposed Perception rolls based on the spellcasting's net hits, so the penalty can vary greatly from NPC to NPC.

No, it's 1 die per hit, not net hit.

Between the drain code, the description / effect, and the fact that it uses hits rather than net hits, everything about it suggests that the spell just happens, without any chance for a resist. And in fact, that reading is the only way the spell(s) makes sense, given the comparison to Invisibility(s).

In fact, it reads very much like the Armor spell, and no one would suggest that can be resisted, even if cast on a suicidal subject.


Maybe it's just a case of terrible cgl writing / editing, but, unlike most (all?) other spells that can be resisted, Camouflage avoids any mention of "failing to resist," object resistance or net hits. Every other spell surrounding it makes a point of including such verbiage, but Camouflage alone only says "1 die per hit" instead.