[Hobbes]

No Intimidation and etiquette (note that the test is opposed test). No pistols (you cannot hide your magical abilities as Long as possible), so they will geek you first. Edge is 1. He has several weaknesses in his face skills => he is not a good face.

Etiquette isn't opposed, and intimidation isn't a required skill.  Especially when you can conjure up Spirits with the Fear ability.  I would argue Astral Perception is a far more needed ability than an intimidation skill, but that isn't because of Skills A or B that is PP and Karma allocation.

Edge 1 is the skills B builds weakest point and be could be addressed by swapping Meta and Attribute priorities *shrug*.  The point here is that skills B build covers the same roles as the Skills A build, and as it turns out, has a better dice pool in Negotiation- bargaining (13 v 16), Con - fastalk (16 v 17), Conjuring (11 vs 12 or 14 for Spirits of Man), Binding (same), even a slight edge in Sorcery (14 v 16 in their chosen specialties).  This is because the Skills A build used the Group skill points on some of those skills where the Skills B used individual skill points getting the skill to 6 instead of 5 and allowing for a specialization at chargen.  Also Menor Spirt vs picking up Spiritual Way at chargen (also another Trap for most builds btw).

As other posters pointed out, the Skills A build is an example of why Skills A is considered a Trap.  You can get the same or better dice pools with different priorities, and as a bonus have a few more stat points to throw around.  The Skills A build winds up spending skill points on things that are really superfluous (pistol, Alchemy) compared to a couple more points in Attributes.  (and, again, SUMto10 vs Priority slightly mitigates the impact of Skills A since you can, and did, put another A priority into something.)         

Edit: Also, Mr. Facemage, you're comparing a SUMto10 build to a Priority build.  Try doing a FaceMage    with the priority system not SUMto10.  There are some very different considerations to make in the Priority System when you can't just take 2 A and 2 E and a C.

[Marcus]

Ok Calm down guys. Back on topic, or take it to another thread, if ya still feel the need to hash it out.

[Facemage]

Read my previous answer about the etiquette test which is opposed (as you can see by reading corebook p. 141). If you want to change that, be free and do it.

I did not put astral perception to my build because I  thought that I take it later with qi focus. But it is really easy to change improved phys Rea to astral perception. Assensing is really easy to get by
allocating
 some points if you have 46/10 points. Much more difficult  with only 36/5. Astral perception is even in discount powers of spiritual way.

Spiritual way is only an option and I am not taking it in chargen.

But without any weapon skill or leadership you are useless in fight in which you cannot use magic.

Yeah, with normal priority system it does not work.

[Facemage]

I have to agree that running away from grenades and low mental limit are real problems. As ikarikonami said. I need to rethink this setup. But leave it out from this thread. My current build in use has not those problems (at least not so severe).It's not exactly the same.

I think that typically the first runs are without bc so it is possible to collect ~20 karma before first bc rum and fill the holes. If there are bc in first run and constantly after that, at least I forget all mages.

Edit: You can always evade one grenade with agi 2. If there are two grenades I think that other characters are also killed. You need to waste -10 in your initiative. It is possible with that build but impossible with riggers, deckers, mundane faces and so on. So, if an enemy throws a second grenade at second phase, many characters are dead (what is the point in that?). If alchemy bonus (and improved invisibility) is not usable (BC is >=5)  it means that pure mage cannot use increase reflexes neither => he is also dead.

[Wakshaani]

If I can bankshot this one a bit, two fo the sample archetypes, the Face and the Weapons Specialist, are Skills A. Would you (the plural you) consider tham 'trap builds', or are they functional as-is?

(Not to say that either can't be improved as the rules I was working on, and which are houseruled in my own game, are a touch different than what the final product was.)

[Whiskeyjack]

Well, first, many of the archetypes (1) do not actually follow the character creation rules; and (2) are incredibly poorly made from an efficiency perspective, rules or not.

The whole concept of "weapons specialist" is a trap, imo, because when you invest in 9 different skills and can only use one of them at a time in any given action pass, the level of redundancy is insanely inefficient.

As for the face, jeez, the character has skills he can barely use. Dice pool of 6 in blades, STR 2, group skills with things you want to take individually and spec in, electronics dice pools of 8 on extended tests or the character has no reason to ever make...

I dunno, I think those archetypes would be improved with total rewrites, and part of those rewrites would include reallocation and improved efficiency. Like, I understand not wanting to ruthlessly optimize the example characters, but some of these are just plain bad.

[Hobbes]

Well the Weapon Specialist has Pistols at 10 dice and everything else in the single digits.  I mean if any character were to take 6 in Firearms group you'd think the Weapon specialist would be it.  The build is really bad, in general.  Tough to say if its a trap or just awful.  But in general being able to pick up any weapon and use it isn't real valuable in Shadowrun anyway.  Having multiple ranged combat skills and multiple melee skills is generally considered wasted points. 

If the Weapon Specialist went with Stats A; Skills B; Resources C; took a moderate combat augmentation package Used Muscle replacement, Wired 1 and Reaction Enhancers, Smartlink, datajack, then a few weapons?   Use the 5 group points and pick up Firearms group, Grab a melee skill, Armorer, and Hardware, Demolitions, splash Gunnery, thrown Weapon, and Heavy Weapons with a few points of Karma.  Max Agility, dump charisma, Body and Will of 3, spread the rest out.... don't you wind up in the ball park of what they were aiming for with much better results?  I have to think that "Weapon Specialist" is supposed to be a combat focused character.  Honestly most technomancers you see on the boards are better off than that mess.

The face is (as far as the archtypes go) not bad.  But even if you tightened up the skills and Maxed out Charisma you still wind up with a smaller dice pool than most of the faces you see on the board because no Augmentations and no Magic.  You'd wind up with a much stronger Primary (face) and at least the inkling of some kind of secondary focus (often combat) if you shuffled around priorities.  So I'd say yes the Face is certainly a trap with Skills A.  You just wind up with a lot of skills you can't use effectively, at the cost of your Primary function.   

The Weapon Specialist concept is a bit of a Trap do to how little value there is to being able to use multiple weapons in most games.  The build in the book is a hot mess.  But Skills B would certainly work for the concept and leave you better off in the long run.  Honestly I lump the Weapon Specialist and the Infiltrator Concept together as traps.  YMMV. 

Edit: Ninja'd by Whiskyjack....

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

But he is a face. If you are going to important negotiation, expensive suit on you, do you have an assault rifle...
What do you think that the opponent side says?

Influence is good spell but not always usable. Someone might notice you. For example in tight negotiation situation Yakuza boss is with mage who check that you do not try to cheat with spells (astral perception) => you have to survive with your natural skills...

It is possible to change clout to influence. It is probably better, I agree that.

Machine Pistols.... duh. You are trading 1DV & -1 AP for a -2 on their Defense Tests... and it gives you access to Real Guns that have actual Damage dealing capabilities while on a job. Pistols don't work against anyone with a decent Soak Pool, so against any kind of credible threat they are meaningless.

[Facemage]

But he is a face. If you are going to important negotiation, expensive suit on you, do you have an assault rifle...
What do you think that the opponent side says?

Influence is good spell but not always usable. Someone might notice you. For example in tight negotiation situation Yakuza boss is with mage who check that you do not try to cheat with spells (astral perception) => you have to survive with your natural skills...

It is possible to change clout to influence. It is probably better, I agree that.

Machine Pistols.... duh. You are trading 1DV & -1 AP for a -2 on their Defense Tests... and it gives you access to Real Guns that have actual Damage dealing capabilities while on a job. Pistols don't work against anyone with a decent Soak Pool, so against any kind of credible threat they are meaningless.

I put my points about the concealability problems of machine pistols to my previous answers. If you want that no one sees your weapon, you cannot use machine pistols (or need very high palming=> which is almost impossible with this build, even more difficult with B in skills).

To resist damage of savalette guardian you need to have on average 24 resistance pool. It is high, few people have so high values. Against these he has a stun bolt (or spirits), which are much better than e.g. an assault rifle. If you cannot use magic at all (in our games this happens very seldom), he has leadership.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

But he is a face. If you are going to important negotiation, expensive suit on you, do you have an assault rifle...
What do you think that the opponent side says?

Influence is good spell but not always usable. Someone might notice you. For example in tight negotiation situation Yakuza boss is with mage who check that you do not try to cheat with spells (astral perception) => you have to survive with your natural skills...

It is possible to change clout to influence. It is probably better, I agree that.

Machine Pistols.... duh. You are trading 1DV & -1 AP for a -2 on their Defense Tests... and it gives you access to Real Guns that have actual Damage dealing capabilities while on a job. Pistols don't work against anyone with a decent Soak Pool, so against any kind of credible threat they are meaningless.

I put my points about the concealability problems of machine pistols to my previous answers. If you want that no one sees your weapon, you cannot use machine pistols (or need very high palming=> which is almost impossible with this build, even more difficult with B in skills).

To resist damage of savalette guardian you need to have on average 24 resistance pool. It is high, few people have so high values. Against these he has a stun bolt (or spirits), which are much better than e.g. an assault rifle. If you cannot use magic at all (in our games this happens very seldom), he has leadership.

Huh??? Heavy Pistol & Machine Pistols have the same Concealability... +0, both can go into Concealed/Quick-Draw Holsters. But why is your Specialization (Semi-Automatics) if you are using Burst fire with a Guardian? You aren't getting your Specialization dice while doing that, so you are -2 Attack Dice instead of the -2 Defense Dice breaking even. 

[Facemage]

I think that I have already get from this forum the essential ideas and rules, so it's waste of time to comment anything more, at least against trolls. Have a nice autumn!

[Glyph]

The weapons specialist, as Whiskeyjack pointed out, is crippled by its very concept - "versatility" in a wide range of redundant skills.  Also, her cyberarm doesn't do anything for her, other than a slight Strength increase, making her essentially all but unaugmented.  Her combat skills are also too low - she already suffers from the lack of Magic and augmentations, without middling skills and no specializations dropping her dice pool down further.  She has a nice, organic feel to her stats, and I understand that archetypes such as her and the sprawl ganger were probably made low-augmentation to avoid stepping on the toes of other builds, such as the street samurai and the tank.  But even with decent Edge and some lethal ordinance to mitigate her low dice pools, I would only recommend her for lower-powered games.

The face has similar low dice-pool problems, but at least hits the teens with his primary dice pools.  He is at a disadvantage against contact types such as the Fixer and Johnson; even adding Edge only makes it close to even, and you want better than 50/50 odds for your main specialty.  He suffers, like the weapons specialist, from being mundane and unaugmented.  Like her, he is best suited for a low-powered campaign.  He is nicely well-rounded, but it seems more that he is functional in some other areas - nothing that I could really call a second specialty.

[Wakshaani]

A bonus that they both have, of course, is that they can go anywhere... neither has Restricted or worse cyberware, and neither has an astral give-away aura, allowing them maximum infiltration. The Weapon Specialist, for instance, is quite able to enter a social event and turn anything there into a weapon, for instance, while the Face has no problems negotiating in even the worst of background counts without pause.

Buuuut, they were designed with an average game in mind, not tweaked to maximum state.

(And were also made with the "One skill at 6 or two at 5, no Skill Groups higher than 4" design process, so.)

[Darzil]

(And were also made with the "One skill at 6 or two at 5, no Skill Groups higher than 4" design process, so.)

Yeah, that'd make a BIG difference. Definitely a rule that would change the characters greatly.

[Wakshaani]

(And were also made with the "One skill at 6 or two at 5, no Skill Groups higher than 4" design process, so.)

Yeah, that'd make a BIG difference. Definitely a rule that would change the characters greatly.

That, and the "Armor maxes at 3X your strength, every 4 points (or fraction thereof) beyond this puts an Encumberance penalty (either -1 Agility, -1 Reaction, or -1 to both, I forget!) on you.

Those were two important rules that vanished. I'm not sure if they were playtest-removed or just fell out of the final copy like Autosofts. Since they haven't been added to errata, I'd *imagine* teh former, but I'm not certain. I know there's been talk of another pass through the core for things again, but, I dunno.

At any rate, I use both of those rules for my house game, to try and get the design smoothed out.

Sadly, I was never able to get a good "Punch a dude in the jaw" rule together for proper cinematic combat.