[Beta]

I’m much more interested in characters that find ways to go around problems than going through problems – but any character has to be ready to help go through things at times i.e. help out in combat.  I have nothing against characters that are primarily combatants, they just aren’t my cup of tea.

This is where the tyranny of initiative keeps biting me.  It is dangerous to be in combat if you are too slow.  Anyone expecting to fight regularly, in character examples from veteran players around here, seem to have at least two levels of enhanced initiative, sometimes with some secondary boost as well.  But getting that much initiative tends to cost so much nuyen/karma/PP/whatever that it starts crowding out the cool stuff that was the reason I was interested in the character in the first place. 

Say I’m imagining an adept that can cling to walls, jump and fall huge distances, glide over surfaces, hear ultrasonic motion sensors, see magical defenses, and when the going gets tough power his fists up with lightning—and I end up taking heightened initiative 2, combat sense, and only a fraction of the cool stuff that made me interested in the character in the first place.  Or give up a broader range of skill competencies to have more resources to pay for more wired reflexes, or give up other cool qualities to have room for enough focused concentration to support a high level of heightened reactions.  Or turn the mage into a mystic adept and dump all the starting karma into PP to get those boosted reflexes.  Or, well, you get the idea. 

I’m wondering, in your games, I’m assuming that samurai, gun-bunnies, and combat mages find ways to regularly score three actions per turn, but what about faces, general purpose mages, intrusions experts, and the like?

[firebug]

I find that 2d6 initiative dice, along with a base initative of at least 9 (ensuring that 2 passes always happens) is enough for a secondary combatant like the face or decker (assuming it isn't a combat decker).

For a Face character or other mundane, I will often just give them the Booster, for it's flat 1d6 for only 10k nuyen, since I usually don't have to have them min-maxed to fit as much 'ware into their body as possible.

The use of combat drugs can also be important.  If combat is likely, a dose of Cram can go a long way to making you more capable.  It lasts for a while too, so you don't need to use it that much.

[Hobbes]

Combat characters 3 actions, however you get there.  Any other 'runner be able to get to 2 actions when you need to, 11 is a fairly low bar to get over with occasional Jazz or Cram. 

[Danny Montanny]

Save a point of Edge to Blitz.

[Beta]

Save a point of Edge to Blitz.

Yah, if you don't fight often, and fights don't last that long for your group, I've thought this could be a viable option for higher edge characters?

How about the Adrenaline Surge quality from Run Faster?  (for 12 karma you go first in the first combat turn of each combat).  Doesn't get you the extra actions, but does let you be first (or at least one of hte first, if others have the same quality or use edge to to to the top of the init table)

[ZeldaBravo]

Going first is very useful even if you're not a combatant at all. At least you can dive behind cover before you get hurt.

[Hobbes]

Adrenaline surge is excellent if you have a big alpha strike ability.  Most Mages for example, or heavy weapons type characters.  Sniper rifles, monowhips, whatever.  If you're a secondary combatant, Decker, Technomancer, Rigger, Face, going first isn't that big a deal. 

[Kincaid]

You can declare Full Defense if you get caught out in the open.  Adrenaline Surge's great strength is alpha striking, so those karma are probably better spent elsewhere.  It's certainly possible to make a great alpha striker with a low initiative, but generally speed and lethality mix pretty well in the system. 

I'd echo what others have said: get to two IPs.  That way you can still act if you declare FD and contribute in a meaningful way (if not a dominant way) in combat.

[bdyer]

With the refresh of edge now, unless your gm is putting you in 2-3 combats each day, just use them to get your initative.

You can also focus on temp boosts to initative such as drugs, having an alchemist give you improve reflex potion every day, or adrenaline boost (adept power)

Personally, if you are making a pure inflitration adept, you could make your secondary combat option be a sniper.  This reduces what you need to put into defenses (to a point)

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Even as a sniper adept (or the newly viable archer adept) multiple passes is needed. And all adept need combat sense at rating 1 and increase reflexes rating 1 at minimum, most say rating 2 is preferred, but you might could make a valid argument for why you don't need it.  After that, fill the rest with what you want to do.

[gilga]

I think that reaction 5 intuition 5 give you 10 1d6 is more than enough, diminishing returns make it expensive to reliably get 3 passes, you just have to make sure that you have two passes as the difference between 1 and 3 is huge but 2 vs 3 is not that bad.

I wouldn't invest in initiative dice unless i reliably go 3 tiems (4 times for mystic adepts and post hard targets also adepts).

the fastest character I can think about: 
Adept + adept spell (improve intuition) + focused concentration 5  (or just mystic adept if you prefer)
reaction 6 + 3 (improve reflexes) + intuition(5) + 4 (improve intuition)  = 18+ 4d6  on average you get 18+14 =32 so you get the 4th pass a little over 50% of the time, but I think that you cannot really go faster than that. 

so I'd feel very comfortable with my 2 actions per round in combat, note that a decker/rigger can get cheap initiative dice by going into VR without expensive augmentations.

nobody seems to go twice as much as a 2 action guy.

[bdyer]

I think that reaction 5 intuition 5 give you 10 1d6 is more than enough, diminishing returns make it expensive to reliably get 3 passes, you just have to make sure that you have two passes as the difference between 1 and 3 is huge but 2 vs 3 is not that bad.

I wouldn't invest in initiative dice unless i reliably go 3 tiems (4 times for mystic adepts and post hard targets also adepts).

the fastest character I can think about: 
Adept + adept spell (improve intuition) + focused concentration 5  (or just mystic adept if you prefer)
reaction 6 + 3 (improve reflexes) + intuition(5) + 4 (improve intuition)  = 18+ 4d6  on average you get 18+14 =32 so you get the 4th pass a little over 50% of the time, but I think that you cannot really go faster than that. 

so I'd feel very comfortable with my 2 actions per round in combat, note that a decker/rigger can get cheap initiative dice by going into VR without expensive augmentations.

nobody seems to go twice as much as a 2 action guy.

Don't forget adrenaline boost.  That can net you even more iniative as long as you can soak the drain.

[Reaver]

To be perfectly honest. Many of my mages in games don't use ANY initiative enhancements at all, and I do just fine. But that could be my play style.

Generally when combat comes up, I spend the first IP (and usually only) getting into cover so as to not be a target. IF the combat actually lasts into an other initiative round (usually doesn't due to the combat/initiative monkeys the other players play) I start casting area effect debuffs (Ice sheet is a personal favorite due to affecting targets I may not be able to see), or buffs on the more combat characters (like Armor on the Troll), or simply concentrating on spell mitigation.


Everything and anything is possible, you don't NEED to have a 2, 3 or even 4 passes to play. (Buy I admit freely it helps).


However, this will depend also on your GM and his play style as well.... if your GM is the type that even street teash gangers are consistently getting 3 IP.... then you probably want at least 2 consistent IPs yourself at minimum.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

My game, you want 2, but this is because any past mook levels has 2 passes. But, we're Neon Pink with Liberty Spikes!

[Hobbes]

Don't forget adrenaline boost.  That can net you even more iniative as long as you can soak the drain.

5 Reaction; 5 Intuition, Level 6 Adrenaline Boost, 1 dose Jazz = 23 + 3d6.  4 actions about 75% of the time all for the low cost of 75 Nuyen, 1.5 PP and a mere 6 DV.  And on trip sixes you get 5 actions!