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Sword and Fist: A Small, Biased Guide to Murdering Sans-Gunpowder

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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #60 on: <11-04-15/0959:31> »
Nope. I fear we'll have to disagree on this point.

Missing or falsely printed stuff is one thing, but missions restrict quite a lot of other options too that are ok in normal play. Code of honor as just one example from the top of my head.



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falar

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« Reply #61 on: <11-04-15/1009:52> »
Nope. I fear we'll have to disagree on this point.

Agree to disagree. I would  count this as a missing thing. Ballistic mask is missing a line, "You cannot wear a Ballistic Mask in combination with a helmet." But, yeah, different table, different rules.

Do you agree that full helmets and Ballistic Masks stacking is right out though?

To clarify - full helmet is the helmet from Full Body Armor, Hardened Mil-Spec Battle Armor, Security Armor and SWAT Armor.
« Last Edit: <11-04-15/1017:37> by falar »

Jimmy_Pvish

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« Reply #62 on: <11-04-15/1018:26> »
Yes, i suspect that some armor piece are not compatible. (PPP vitals with some armor, PPP arms with Forearm Guard, Ballistic Mask with any Helmet)

In this case, pick up ballistic shield instead.

Totally not look suspicious at all !!  8)

falar

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« Reply #63 on: <11-04-15/1033:01> »
PPP arms with Forearm Guard

I actually don't have a problem with this. It looks dorky as crap, but I don't see a reason why you couldn't strap the arms kit over the forearm guards.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #64 on: <11-04-15/1040:55> »
@falar
Full helmets are part of full body armor (I count mil-spec armors in that set). Those state explicitly that you can't wear other armor add-ons (beside shields).



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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #65 on: <11-04-15/1127:17> »
Actually only the MilSpec hardened armor has the line about what stacks with it and the PPP line says what they stack with and what they don't. I don't think the PPP vitals stacks with Sleeping Tiger, but doesn't list it in the book. Full and SWAT have the full helmets that allows chem seals, but otherwise don't restricted add-ons. I also don't agree with no face mask and regular helmet (not the +3 version), but I also have issues with players using the full helmet with armors other than the one it is designed to come with. My table let's ballistic masks stack with the +2 helmet but only the +3 version is compatible with full armors and the precious Chem seal. When it comes to stacking armor I have bigger issues with cyberlimb cheese than armor mods and dealing with encumbrance.

Besides, IRL versions of ballistics masks are combined with helmets, depending on the version used.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

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falar

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« Reply #66 on: <11-04-15/1140:00> »
When it comes to stacking armor I have bigger issues with cyberlimb cheese
Just because I took a Centaur Liminal Body and two cyberarms for a total of +21 armor doesn't mean anything's wrong! The system is working as designed!

21 = +3 per limb (4 legs + 2 arms) and +3 for torso-y bits of the body.

Add Sleeping Tiger + Synergist Longcoat + helmet for 39 before body. Add at least one Body and you have enough to auto-soak 10 damage!

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #67 on: <11-04-15/1145:33> »
Nothing wrong, mechanically, just screams cheese and makes me want to use Sec Guards using lasers, vindicators, HMGs, and Barretts (with bullseye trick shots) loaded with either ADPS or Depleted Uranium rounds. Why, because that much cheese needs some chuncky bits to go with it.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Reaver

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« Reply #68 on: <11-04-15/1212:38> »
Nothing wrong, mechanically, just screams cheese and makes me want to use Sec Guards using lasers, vindicators, HMGs, and Barretts (with bullseye trick shots) loaded with either ADPS or Depleted Uranium rounds. Why, because that much cheese needs some chuncky bits to go with it.

Pate.


Its "cheese and pate" on crackers....

Your armor is the cracker, you body is the pate (after the GM is done with you) and the cheese is your rediculous armor stacking. :P
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #69 on: <11-04-15/1239:23> »
Nothing wrong, mechanically, just screams cheese and makes me want to use Sec Guards using lasers, vindicators, HMGs, and Barretts (with bullseye trick shots) loaded with either ADPS or Depleted Uranium rounds. Why, because that much cheese needs some chuncky bits to go with it.

Pate.


Its "cheese and pate" on crackers....

Your armor is the cracker, you body is the pate (after the GM is done with you) and the cheese is your rediculous armor stacking. :P

Mmm, lunch time!  :P
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Marcus

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« Reply #70 on: <11-04-15/1328:18> »
@Marcus
Source?
If you like pictures I'll point you to 66 and 67 of the R&G (Which are the models for the Hardened Mil-Spec armor) But I agree it's not a great precedent.

Source is that security and Higher Level armor are intend for full containment, including protecting vs Chem and Bio type weapons. Which is discussed in the CORE, which means they have to be Sealed, and that means fully enclosed and sealed helmets.
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #71 on: <11-04-15/1331:20> »
No argument there. But we are talking also about the cheap 100 NY helmet and not only about the full body armor stuff who come with the option of a chemical seal which of course has to be a closed helmet.
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Marcus

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« Reply #72 on: <11-04-15/1353:10> »
No argument there. But we are talking also about the cheap 100 NY helmet and not only about the full body armor stuff who come with the option of a chemical seal which of course has to be a closed helmet.

As I understand it the cheapest variants are all basically visored motorcycle helmets, according the core. My argument coming from the fact that they are all intended to take imagelink tech. Now I'm sure stats for an open faced helmet that would stack with the Mask  can be found, but at that point they should be basically the same as the stats for a milspec helmet less the hermetic seals.


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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #73 on: <11-04-15/1614:51> »
Or they can be fluff as bicycle helmets with either a small lenses for the eyes or whatever you want to describe it as. Heck, even military helmets (modern) have straps to attach vision gear too. Having a gas-mask or ballistic mask fit under them.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

JB_1976

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« Reply #74 on: <11-05-15/1243:28> »

What matters is not that you get an extra free action; you get that with the quality no matter what, and you can take the quality WITH Rapid Draw.  What matters is that rapid draw lets you attack as a free action.  Without it, you can only attack as a complex - which removes your ability to use simple actions.


This in itself can completely fuck up the action economy and tilt the whole argument against guns.

Free Actions (shadowrun 163)
Free Actions are relatively simple, nearly automatic actions that require little effort to accomplish. Examples are saying a word, dropping an object, gesturing, or walking. A character may take one Free Action during his own
Action Phase or at some later point in the Initiative Pass. A character may only take a Free Action prior to his first Action Phase in the Initiative Pass if they are not surprised (see Surprise, p. 192). Only one Free Action is normally allowed per Initiative Pass, but multiple Free Actions could be allowed by the gamemaster if the situation seems reasonable(dropping an object and speaking a phrase). Free Actions generally require no Success Test,though special circumstances may warrant one.

Throw Weapon (page 166)
A character may throw a ready throwing weapon (see
Ready Weapon, p. 165) by taking a Simple Action. The
character may not take any other attack actions in the
same Action Phase
. Multiple readied throwing weapons
can be thrown at a target within Short or Medium
range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see
Multiple Attacks, p. 196).

It seems to me off putting that you would be better then a gun man at ranged with your shuirken, because you mess up the action economy: your action phase: ready throwing weapons, throw weapon (save your free action)
in  your enemy's action phase: you know what free action: ready and throw another shuriken/grenade before he gets a chance to act (or at the same time)...  I mean I like boosting something as adept just like the next guy  8), but if rapid draw is that good, why waste it on your own turn, where you already can attack normally, no do extra damage on the opponents turn....  It gets outright ridiculous if you use a motion sensor grenade on your opponents IP.