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Which is better?

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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #15 on: <11-03-15/2222:27> »
Or manabolt or magebolt, but magebolt only works on awakened things...wait.... astral... awakened... Nope nevermind, they are not linked. B)
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

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Strange

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« Reply #16 on: <11-04-15/0015:14> »
Problems with astral combat is it is melee, even with astral movement speeds, range generally win, plus spells can be used in melee ranges with little to know penalties. Stunbolts range is line of sight and without astral projection you can't really chase atral beings.
Ok let’s compare a stunbolt cast at force 6 with the sword.  So at force 6 the max damage is, um, 6.  I only get 12 dice for that if I've maxed out my spellcasting, so most likely I won’t even get the 6, probably more like 4 or 5.  Each time I cast, I have to make a drain resist, in this case, the target number is only 3.  If I am playing the more caster oriented version, I would have 13 dice to resist this with.  Should be fine, but occasionally I will only get one or two hits, resulting in drain.  Let’s give the defender a 4 on will, giving him 1 or 2 hits on average, leaving me with a damage of around 3 or 4.

The sword is as follows, AGI+blades+focus rating (5+5+4) = 14. If I max out blades it would be 15.  With reach, I get another die if my opponent has none. My limit, however, is 6 for Physical.  Damage is Str+3+1(for critical strike)for a total of 8.  Now, let's say I only get 5 or 6 hits with this roll, resulting in a total damage value of 13 or 14.  Then there is no drain.  Let’s give the defender a 4 on both reaction and intuition, so he gets 8 dice, with an average of 3 hits.  So I do around 11 damage.  Now let’s assume our goon has rating 6 armor and a body of 4.  The sword has AP-3, so they get 7 dice.  Average is probably around 3 for that.  That gives me a final damage of around 8.  That is twice as good as the spell, with no chance of drain.

Now I understand that astral combat is rougher, but let’s assume I am fighting a spirit inside a building, and they, for whatever reason, are not materialized and is in melee range. If for any reason I can't reach them I use the spell.  The math above holds for a spirit rated at 4.  If they flee, fine, that's what we wanted.  If they stay in melee range (let's pretend the spirit wants to attack me, and he has no ranged attacks) we have different values.

For melee, a rating 4 spirit has values of 4 for intuition and logic.  My attack would be similar with astral combat instead of blades, being Astral Combat skill plus willpower plus focus rating (+4+5+4)or 13.  If I maxed it, it would be 15 instead. My limit is 7 for this test, however, but with 13-15 dice I probably won’t hit that a whole lot.  Again Let’s say I get 5 or 6 hits, that sounds about average.  My opponent would probably get 3 hits, as above.  Now, the sword uses CHR for astral beings instead of strength, so now the damage is CHR+3+1, so 12 plus the result of the roll, making it 14 or 15.  That doesn’t suck.  Now the spirit gets to resist with his force 4, let’s be nice and give him 2 hits.  12-13 final damage.  That is 3 times the damage of the spell, with no drain.

Please correct me if I have anything wrong!  I’m tired, it’s been a long day.

ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #17 on: <11-04-15/0117:00> »
If you max out your spellcasting you'll have 16 dice (6 Magic, 6 Spellcasting, 2 Combat spells spec, 2 Dragonslayer bonus).
Now let's see what situations you can find yourself in.
  • An astral entity wants to engage you in astral combat (melee) - that's generally good for your skillset so you know what to do. Astral combat value - high.
  • An astral entity wants to engage you in ranged spellslinging - you have two options: you strike back or you stop persieving. If you stop persieving there is nothing an astral entity can do to you. Astral combat value - low to zero.
  • An astral entity flees - there is nothing you can do about it. Astral combat value - zero.
  • An astral entity materialises - hit them with anything you like. Astral combat value - zero, because an astral entity now is dual-natured and you use Blades skill to hit it in melee.
Astral combat is not bad when you're doing melee combat in astral, but for you it is useless outside a very specific set of conditions. If you were a Magician you could handle this a little bit better.
If you really want to hit 'em with your sword on astral plane then you must invest more. At least get Mana Bind and Mana Barier spells.
I don't really understand why would you want to fight something completely harmless in the first place.
« Last Edit: <11-04-15/0119:44> by ZeldaBravo »
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

Strange

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« Reply #18 on: <11-04-15/0126:17> »
If you max out your spellcasting you'll have 16 dice (6 Magic, 6 Spellcasting, 2 Combat spells spec, 2 Dragonslayer bonus).
Now let's see what situations you can find yourself in.
  • An astral entity wants to engage you in astral combat (melee) - that's generally good for your skillset so you know what to do. Astral combat value - high.
  • An astral entity wants to engage you in ranged spellslinging - you have two options: you strike back or you stop persieving. If you stop persieving there is nothing an astral entity can do to you. Astral combat value - low to zero.
  • An astral entity flees - there is nothing you can do about it. Astral combat value - zero.
  • An astral entity materialises - hit them with anything you like. Astral combat value - zero, because an astral entity now is dual-natured and you use Blades skill to hit it in melee.
Astral combat is not bad when you're doing melee combat in astral, but for you it is useless outside a very specific set of conditions. If you were a Magician you could handle this a little bit better.
If you really want to hit 'em with your sword on astral plane then you must invest more. At least get Mana Bind and Mana Barier spells.

TOTALLY forgot about the dragonslayer bonus!  Still, damage is less than astral combat with focus, and there is the drain to contend with.  Those spell suggestions are pretty good. They fit character concept well, too (Maybe I might need to change priorities and get higher magic for more spells!)

Thanks ZeldaBravo
 

ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #19 on: <11-04-15/0143:05> »
No problem.

Could you please tell me why would you want to fight something not materialised?
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

Strange

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« Reply #20 on: <11-04-15/0205:29> »
Could you please tell me why would you want to fight something not materialised?


I wouldn't say he wants  to fight something materialized, per se, it just seems he would have had to at some points during his career as an occult investigator. I never wanted the big issue with it, I just thought that it made some sense.  Look at it this way, for some reason a person is being stalked by a spirit.  Haunted, even.  Some spirits have no ranged combat, and perhaps this spirit refuses to leave the person alone.  That's the kind of jobs this guy gets. Sure, it might not ever happen, but then again maybe having this character might make the GM make situations like this happen. Either way, if he's the only guy who can handle this situation, shouldn't he be good at it?

If I can figure out a way to make the regular magician fit the concept (that of being somewhat decent with the sword for both normal and magical baddies, hence the adept side) I'd do it.
 

Facemage

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« Reply #21 on: <11-04-15/0211:22> »
If you really want to use stun bolt, you select also witness my hate and use reagents (or edge). One F1 spell and your drain is still 2. But your damage is on average 7.333. With Power focus 5 even better (9). You stun almost everything with 1-2 spells.

Strange

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« Reply #22 on: <11-04-15/0231:21> »
If you really want to use stun bolt, you select also witness my hate and use reagents (or edge). One F1 spell and your drain is still 2. But your damage is on average 7.333. With Power focus 5 even better (9). You stun almost everything with 1-2 spells.
I don't care about stun bolt, it's a non issue.

Rooks

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« Reply #23 on: <11-04-15/0304:01> »
Dont forget practice practice practice for +1 limit power focus 3 for +3 dice pool bonus

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #24 on: <11-04-15/0816:38> »
Practice, Practice, Practice, doesn't do crap for anything combat related. Sorry Rook.

Also, while astrally perceiving character take a -2 dice pool penalty to everything besides astral perception.

 As ZeldaBravo pointed out without projection, astral combat is worthless, better to let the spirit materialize (complex action) the you forcibly banish it (fill out its damage track). Since you have a weapon foci materialize spirits have no armor against it.

Witness my Hate increase both damage by +2 and drain (I think by also +2) for all direct combat spells. Direct spells are resisted with either only Body or only Will (plus counterspelling and spell resistance as normal). Stunbolt and Manabolt are resisted with only Will. So yeah, you only deal 6 max (no reagents, no WmH) they get 4 dice in your example. You should deal about 5 damage in your example. Average rule of thumb, for every 3 dice you will get 1 hit, so with maxed spellcasting skill, combat spells should be around 5 hits, so example critter tasword damage on an average casting. Not as much as a sword, but melee with spirits can be suicidal with all but the best, fastest, and  luckiest people.

I get you maxed Cha, but astral combat is a generally poor choice for full mages and a worthless one for everyone else.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Marcus

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« Reply #25 on: <11-04-15/0912:19> »
I'm huge fan of projection, I prefer it over MysAds every-time. But the facts is, there is almost zero call for Astral Combat starting, and I run melee equipped wizards.
You can easily pick up Astral Combat once the character is in play. In the mean time spells do the job very efficiently. Until initiation is complete and Astral Questing is possible it's just not critical. 
 
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #26 on: <11-04-15/1048:08> »
So true. Can adepts and MysAd go on astral quests? Outside of Alceras and Rifts I don't think they can get on to the astral and therefor astral planes.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Marcus

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« Reply #27 on: <11-04-15/1113:17> »
So true. Can adepts and MysAd go on astral quests? Outside of Alceras and Rifts I don't think they can get on to the astral and therefor astral planes.
Yeah it's not just going Astral, it's about going to the meta planes. Ya gotta cross the gate. In general that's the domain of full up initiates. I'm not gonna say there is no way, give'en rifts,  the Astral gateway power, various artifacts, and full up plot magic, but in general no.
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #28 on: <11-04-15/1147:32> »
Didn't think so, but then you get into the weird they are physically on the Meta Planes/Astral, so astral combat is still pointless as well.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

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« Reply #29 on: <11-04-15/1206:27> »
So true. Can adepts and MysAd go on astral quests? Outside of Alceras and Rifts I don't think they can get on to the astral and therefor astral planes.

Not without help.

But with astral gateway spirit power, it IS possible. But also presents its own host of problems.... (Like getting a spirit to agree to use it!)

In general, if you can't project, you can't do a metamagic quest for your initiation.*

*Getting a spirit to agree to use the astral gateway power could literally be a run in and of itself. And if you think "Just summon and bind a spirit and FORCE it too"..... think again.
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