[revan.be]

one idea would be to make a few tables with a flat nuyen reduction for each table,
each table containing a randomly rollable list of repair glitches ,
that would cause it to act up in a certain situation, use scenario or give minuses to actions or certain properties;
each with its own description of mechanics ,

why no percentages instead?
Lets just say i think the last thing shadowrun needs is even MORE too-complex-for-only-a-game maths...
(explosives squareroot i am looking at you)

either that or just do what star wars does with starships ;
have them owe to a loanshark because of the cost .....

[tytalan]

I to think Kincaid got it right and adzling is also right.  In second and third edition you could use the build from scratch rules to also up grade your deck making it more yours work better for your style of play.  I also want the Deck to be the best by far option if you want to hack.  Maybe we need a eBook for Deck and Software?

[Mr. Grey]

There are some good points in here. I'll have to download 3rd ed Matrix book (thank you Catalyst for making them reasonably priced to buy!) to reread how detailed it was.

One thing that has stood out to me over the years has always been that deckers need to match up to the host they run against. In the past they were rated blue, green, orange, and red, making it easier for the GM to put thing together. I wonder if some of the problem is how hard the hosts are to crack for starting deckers compared to prior editions. Too hard and you can't invest in anything else. Also, how do the decks stack for street level and prime runner levels?

Just tossing out some things. I am by no means a deckmeister.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Street, lol, deck? Haha!! Prime, Deckers work fine.

[All4BigGuns]

The build-from-scratch rules of previous editions were popular, but build-from-scratch rules (for anything, in many RPG systems) always seem to have a blindspot that turns it into its own minigame.

Such should always be included in an edition. It is an insanely fun exercise in creativity that can be done when you don't have the rest of your group around. Even if you never get to use all of your creations, it's still fun to do it.

[Dinendae]

I liked the pricing of the RCCs. Take those and double them for you decks.

That should be enough to make them still valuable but not so expensive that you have to quit your character once your equipment  has been fried.

I think Jack_Spade has it right: Cyberdecks should run about double what an equivalent RCC costs. With it being very easy to turn a RCC (or even a decent commlink) into a hacking device, no more than double would allow them to have all four matrix stats. Of course that would mean that matrix combat would need some work, to actually make it attractive to use instead of being a foolish option to take as it is now.

[Whiskeyjack]

Of course that would mean that matrix combat would need some work, to actually make it attractive to use instead of being a foolish option to take as it is now.

I can't think of any edition where matrix combat was a done well or worthwhile to participate in.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

I can't think of any edition where matrix combat was a done well or worthwhile to participate in.

ShadowRun Returns! Especially Hong Hong.... 

As for pen and paper. No idea.

[Mr. Grey]

Street, lol, deck? Haha!! Prime, Deckers work fine.

Rather than laugh and dismiss out of hand, it would be nice to have information as to why not. Looking at the list of decks, with a priority of C, there are a few decks which can work. Are you saying that they are completely unusable against even the most basic security? What is a low level decker missing at that level to make them viable?

[Darzil]

Street, lol, deck? Haha!! Prime, Deckers work fine.

Rather than laugh and dismiss out of hand, it would be nice to have information as to why not. Looking at the list of decks, with a priority of C, there are a few decks which can work. Are you saying that they are completely unusable against even the most basic security? What is a low level decker missing at that level to make them viable?

Well, Street priority C is 25000 nuyen. There are two decks in Data Trails that you can buy for that, and none in Core. The expensive one is the only one of the two you can swap attributes on, and they go up as high as 2, which is quite a low limit. You can get that up to 3 with your one program, 4 with Overclocker quality, maybe 5 by reducing one of the 2's to 1 by upgrade. Either way you either have paper thin firewall when doing anything, or cannot do anything and have a weak firewall.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Besides the lovely explanation to why given by Darzil.

Deckers and Street Samurai require funds to do there jobs, which are both gear based. Street level encourages MagicRun, because it is the only way to make characters that can survive. You dont have funds for it really otherwise. Prime Runners have the funds at most priority levels to be able to buy a deck.

[All4BigGuns]

Honestly, the price points for a lot of Augmentations and Matrix equipment would be about right if Priority A were at the point it was in SR3, but with less than half that, not so much.

[Mr. Grey]

Street, lol, deck? Haha!! Prime, Deckers work fine.

Rather than laugh and dismiss out of hand, it would be nice to have information as to why not. Looking at the list of decks, with a priority of C, there are a few decks which can work. Are you saying that they are completely unusable against even the most basic security? What is a low level decker missing at that level to make them viable?

Well, Street priority C is 25000 nuyen. There are two decks in Data Trails that you can buy for that, and none in Core. The expensive one is the only one of the two you can swap attributes on, and they go up as high as 2, which is quite a low limit. You can get that up to 3 with your one program, 4 with Overclocker quality, maybe 5 by reducing one of the 2's to 1 by upgrade. Either way you either have paper thin firewall when doing anything, or cannot do anything and have a weak firewall.

Alright. By boosting it up to A you can get a couple from the book. All of them seem to be poor but, but at street level, it's better than nothing, is about right. Now looking at the host listing on page 247, I figure our street scum would be hacking 1-4 as a regular, 5-6 on the outside. Would those decks be viable against that level of challenge?

A regular running group would be against 5-8 on average, 9-10 on the outside. Again are the hosts at that level equal of a challenge for the starting decks we're looking at?

[Mr. Grey]

Besides the lovely explanation to why given by Darzil.

Deckers and Street Samurai require funds to do there jobs, which are both gear based. Street level encourages MagicRun, because it is the only way to make characters that can survive. You dont have funds for it really otherwise. Prime Runners have the funds at most priority levels to be able to buy a deck.

If security is an air tight lean mean shadowrun eating machine, then yes, you need top of the line gear. Against, Timmy, the pimple faced part time rent-a-cop, not so much. And there are lots of layers in between. What I am saying is, if you calibrate the difficulty level for your team right, the rules and equipment should hold up well. At this point, I do not see enough evidence that the rules can't hold up well as is as long things are thought out properly.

Shadowrun 5 appears to be more about depth of character including flaws in both the runners, their gear and the forces they are against. That's a huge dynamic outside of simple dice rolling and statistics. Then again, in my last group, our most famous street sam was a 2nd edition unaugmented ork who played it smart and was deathly afraid of bugs having jumped on a chair and screamed like a 5 year old girl when a spider ran across the room (before any advantages and disadvantages) causing one huge gun fight, chase scene and a lot of patients for docwagon (namely the other PCs).

The one area I do agree with (barring evidence otherwise) is that more options for decks to be modified and upgraded along the way would be nice. As many have pointed out, a deck (and the right vehicle for riggers) is a major investment and players will be using it for a long long time.

[Darzil]

A regular running group would be against 5-8 on average, 9-10 on the outside. Again are the hosts at that level equal of a challenge for the starting decks we're looking at?

A deck with a limit of 2 isn't going to be much use against something with a dice pool of 6 to defend, which would be getting 2 hits on average.

Edit - Do yourself a favour and just play a Technomancer at Street level.