[ProfessorCirno]

Longarms actually own, there's a heavy pistol sized shotgun you can use as your concealed weapon, and ARs will never do the damage the battle rifle or god forbid full auto shotgun will do, and shotties are bar none the best way to clear mooks.  And just like that you got your concealed weapon, your group clearer, your long range, and your heavy damage.

Plus you get to be Terry Crews.

[Duellist_D]

Heavy Pistols are fine, they pack enough BAM for their seize.

Active Hardwires though? I don't see the appeal, as of now (sorry Wakshani) they are pretty much useless. You pay 54k for a Level 6 Construct, thats 26 Karma. Skill Level 4+Spec is just one Karma more, you can use Edge, Reflexrecorders and can get your Skill higher than 6.
Only valid application is if you need two different Longarm Groups on a 5 or 6 Skillpool (and never higher) but even then i'm not sure that 15 Karma is worth that 0.3 loss in Essence.

If, however, you treat Hardwires as coming with the Chip included in the price, they can be a valid alternative.

[Psicorp]

To get us back on topic, I think that while the discussion of the mechanics of building a decker are interesting, we're missing the big problem with the decker as implemented in 5E: it's not very cyberpunk from a thematic stand point. Cyberpunk is about the people who live on the edges of a world dominated by corporations run amuck, they're the guys who scrounge the things that the happy shiny consumerist dystopia has thrown away. WHn you think "cyberpunk hacker" what comes to mind? I don't know about you, but "guy with a computer more expensive than a house in downtown Tokyo" doesn't really pop to the top of my list. That's the problem with the decker as conceived in 5E, he's the ultimate coporate consumerist, his entire live is dutifully spending hundresd of thousands of nuyen to line up in front of the Apple Renraku Store to buy the latest iHack 7S. Thet's the exact opposite of how I envision a hacker. In this matter, I think 4E, for its flaws, did deckers better. Deckers should by "Skills A, Resources 'whatever'" because a true hacker is defined by their matrix skills, not how shiny their deck is.

[All4BigGuns]

Longarms is really only for 'runners with multiple combat skills.   

Not really. With Longarms, you have the larger weapons, and there are several shotguns (a Longarms weapon) that can easily hide under a Lined Coat. Choice of firearms skill is nothing more but a matter of taste. Bigger fan of pistols, myself, but the one I'm most likely to ignore is Automatics.

[Moonshine Fox]

To get us back on topic, I think that while the discussion of the mechanics of building a decker are interesting, we're missing the big problem with the decker as implemented in 5E: it's not very cyberpunk from a thematic stand point. Cyberpunk is about the people who live on the edges of a world dominated by corporations run amuck, they're the guys who scrounge the things that the happy shiny consumerist dystopia has thrown away. WHn you think "cyberpunk hacker" what comes to mind? I don't know about you, but "guy with a computer more expensive than a house in downtown Tokyo" doesn't really pop to the top of my list. That's the problem with the decker as conceived in 5E, he's the ultimate coporate consumerist, his entire live is dutifully spending hundresd of thousands of nuyen to line up in front of the Apple Renraku Store to buy the latest iHack 7S. Thet's the exact opposite of how I envision a hacker. In this matter, I think 4E, for its flaws, did deckers better. Deckers should by "Skills A, Resources 'whatever'" because a true hacker is defined by their matrix skills, not how shiny their deck is.

Actually in 4th it was apparently skills whatever too, as you could just get some agents to autohack for you. I always pictured the cyberpunk decker as a guy with a room (or house) filled with electronics. Workbenches covered in half disassembled systems, parts and tools everywhere, wires making a more complex pattern then a dozen spider webs, banks of monitors mounted on humming server racks (like the pics from 3rd ed books). With wireless and more compact tech, I envision modern deckers decks being able to fit in a cargo pocket or small pouch, but they still have that wires running everywhere parts hanging off and taped on cobbled together look. Besides, the dystonia feel is still there, to beat the corps at their game, you have to join in the game. That means using their stuff and playing (to a point) by their rules. GOD also helps give it that edge of paranoia feel. No matter how good your equipment or skills are, they will find you, and they will drop an electronic elbow on you from orbit. It's only a matter of when, not if, they trace you.

The idea for rules for building your own/modifying decks not only could help bring their initial and upgrade costs in line, but would give it that 'searched through the scrap heap for the right part' sort of feel.

[CitizenJoe]

Do you actually need your deck with you?  Barring the hacking issue, couldn't you use your commlink to control your deck remotely?  If that is the case, then a deck doesn't need to be compact at all, or even a single device for that matter.

[Whiskeyjack]

Do you actually need your deck with you?  Barring the hacking issue, couldn't you use your commlink to control your deck remotely?  If that is the case, then a deck doesn't need to be compact at all, or even a single device for that matter.

Noise might be a bigger problem.

[Moonshine Fox]

Do you actually need your deck with you?  Barring the hacking issue, couldn't you use your commlink to control your deck remotely?  If that is the case, then a deck doesn't need to be compact at all, or even a single device for that matter.

Noise might be a bigger problem.

Going both ways no less, so double noise. That and the matrix perception since the deck could only see what's around it without a matrix perception test, even if you're standing next to the device. With a datajack you probably wouldn't even need the commlink as you could access your deck via that I would think.

[Wakshaani]

Agreed in full about the cobbled-together monsters that most deckers should be using vs the store-bounght shiny that we actually see. I wanted to see a real scratch-built look in the SR5 core, since everything was still in the "We have no idea what works" stage of thins, but a need for official security deckers put me out of that one.

My initial suggestion list had six Decks, named things like "ScriptKiddie Scrounger" and "FrankenSlamm-0's Monster", with the intent that *real* decks would be included in the Matrix book down the line. That cobbled-together vibe made sense to me, but, not my call to make in the end. 

[Darzil]

Agreed in full about the cobbled-together monsters that most deckers should be using vs the store-bounght shiny that we actually see. I wanted to see a real scratch-built look in the SR5 core, since everything was still in the "We have no idea what works" stage of thins, but a need for official security deckers put me out of that one.

Would love to see it, but pretty much the minimum Matrix Attributes should be 3, and probably not that low on all four on one deck. Would still be a lower limit than the lowest firearms in the game. Having limits so low that they can't be used effectively seems a little unfortunate. That they are massively expensive for that is bizarre. It's as if the person balancing them didn't know how limits work.

[Psicorp]

Do you actually need your deck with you?  Barring the hacking issue, couldn't you use your commlink to control your deck remotely?  If that is the case, then a deck doesn't need to be compact at all, or even a single device for that matter.

Noise might be a bigger problem.

Going both ways no less, so double noise. That and the matrix perception since the deck could only see what's around it without a matrix perception test, even if you're standing next to the device. With a datajack you probably wouldn't even need the commlink as you could access your deck via that I would think.

This actually gives me an idea. What if we forked cyberdecks in mobile an workstation versions? Mobile cyberdecks are what we currently have, workstations are the large, self assembled, cheap monstrosities in someone's basement. You can run a workstation remotely, you have a new piece of software: VPN. VPN sits on the workstation and you comm-link, creating a connection with high Noise Reduction. It also acts like a tunnel, allowing your workstation to see everything that your comm-link does, and allowing you to access your persona and slave your devices to the workstation through your comm-link. To give people a reason to still have mobile cyberdecks, limit VR on remote, I'm not sure which would work better, disallowing VR full-stop, or just not allowing hot-sim.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

I would not call the hackers in 4th deckers, you have to have a deck to be a decker, which was one of 4th major issues for me. As for ideal decker weapon, automatics specialized into MPs. Just as easy to hide as a heavy pistol, but with more fire mode options, and one is basically a heavy pistol, stat wise (Remington Suppressor).

As to 5th ed issue for deckers, decks as they currently exist are to expensive, a side from a few in Data Trails. The cheaper starting decks should have been in the core, with maybe one or two elite decks. All the other middle to high end decks should have been in Data Trails.

[Hobbes]

Do you actually need your deck with you?  Barring the hacking issue, couldn't you use your commlink to control your deck remotely?  If that is the case, then a deck doesn't need to be compact at all, or even a single device for that matter.

Noise might be a bigger problem.

Going both ways no less, so double noise. That and the matrix perception since the deck could only see what's around it without a matrix perception test, even if you're standing next to the device. With a datajack you probably wouldn't even need the commlink as you could access your deck via that I would think.

This actually gives me an idea. What if we forked cyberdecks in mobile an workstation versions? Mobile cyberdecks are what we currently have, workstations are the large, self assembled, cheap monstrosities in someone's basement. You can run a workstation remotely, you have a new piece of software: VPN. VPN sits on the workstation and you comm-link, creating a connection with high Noise Reduction. It also acts like a tunnel, allowing your workstation to see everything that your comm-link does, and allowing you to access your persona and slave your devices to the workstation through your comm-link. To give people a reason to still have mobile cyberdecks, limit VR on remote, I'm not sure which would work better, disallowing VR full-stop, or just not allowing hot-sim.

I swear 3rd Edition did something like that, but limited them in some critical way (Initiative?) to force the decker to get out of the house. 

[jim1701]

Agreed in full about the cobbled-together monsters that most deckers should be using vs the store-bounght shiny that we actually see. I wanted to see a real scratch-built look in the SR5 core, since everything was still in the "We have no idea what works" stage of thins, but a need for official security deckers put me out of that one.

My initial suggestion list had six Decks, named things like "ScriptKiddie Scrounger" and "FrankenSlamm-0's Monster", with the intent that *real* decks would be included in the Matrix book down the line. That cobbled-together vibe made sense to me, but, not my call to make in the end.

This is kind of where I am at.  I don't really see a problem with the cost of the current cyber decks at chargen but upgrading, customizing or replacing your starting cyber deck later on down the road is a severe obstacle IMO.  I'd love to see more options for customizing decks (not RCC's or commlinks) such as what was in data trails. 

[Zar]

I don't mind the cost of cyberdecks as store bought models but it should be EASY for the decker to build and upgrade one from scratch after character creation.  That was the main disappointment I had with the matrix 5 book.  Doing that kind of stuff with your deck should easy and comparatively inexpensive  to buying from the store.