[FasterN8]

Automatics shouldn't exist as a category, IMHO. Pistols and Longarms would do, but there needs to be a third in there for "firearms". I'd be tempted to stick heavy weapons in there as the other, but, not sure. But that's a tad off-topic, so.

I actually had this as a houserule before but heavy weapons made the Firearms group too strong.  I'd put Gunnery in there instead, but still require a heavy weapons skill for heavy mounted weaponry.  The big hip-fired machine guns, missile launchers and indirect fire grenade launchers are different enough that they should probably have their own skill pretty much all the time.  Direct fire stuff that you look down the barrel of - pistols, rifles and mounted bullet-throwers with sights (or embedded camera in the case of remote control) all fit nicely into one group both logically and balance-wise.

I'd keep heavy weaponry out of any groups for the same reason exotic weapon (dart pistol) is on it's own.  Too much potential power in one skill to allow volume discounts.

Sorry for following you down the rabbit hole, but I thought the playtest info would be useful.

[FasterN8]

Back to the original topic - The base cost thing is a balance issue but somewhat hard to quantify.  The upgrade issue is a much easier problem to tackle soo...

      I've been grinding on some numbers to try and suss out (or approximate) the underlying math of the cyberdeck cost/power curve.  It's a nasty task with so many variables, but I'm making a little progress.  The idea would be to create a formulaic cost for upgrading a cyberdecks' device rating and then further costs for adding the other features that would eventually bring the deck on par with the next tier of decks.  Overall, the cost of those upgrades would be the same or a bit more than the difference in list prices between decks, but being able to upgrade in small chunks would be the real godsend to deckers, even if there was a small cost premium. 

Going from a rating 2 deck to a rating 3 is about 80,000
Going from a rating 3 deck to a rating 4 is about 130,000
Going from a rating 4 deck to a rating 5 is about 195,000
Going from a rating 5 deck to a rating 6 is about 275,000

Those are steep, but definitely achievable within a career.  Of course, if you made the base costs cheaper these delta would also decrease.

[CitizenJoe]

Automatics shouldn't exist as a category, IMHO. Pistols and Longarms would do, but there needs to be a third in there for "firearms". I'd be tempted to stick heavy weapons in there as the other, but, not sure. But that's a tad off-topic, so.

I actually had this as a houserule before but heavy weapons made the Firearms group too strong.  I'd put Gunnery in there instead, but still require a heavy weapons skill for heavy mounted weaponry.  The big hip-fired machine guns, missile launchers and indirect fire grenade launchers are different enough that they should probably have their own skill pretty much all the time.  Direct fire stuff that you look down the barrel of - pistols, rifles and mounted bullet-throwers with sights (or embedded camera in the case of remote control) all fit nicely into one group both logically and balance-wise.

I'd keep heavy weaponry out of any groups for the same reason exotic weapon (dart pistol) is on it's own.  Too much potential power in one skill to allow volume discounts.

Sorry for following you down the rabbit hole, but I thought the playtest info would be useful.

I swear I just talked about this.  Go with pistols (1 hand) long arms (2 hand) and then automatics isn't a weapon skill but rather a recoil compensation skill.  Rather than using the default natural RC, you make an Automatic + Strength [physical] test to reduce the recoil penalty.

[jim1701]

Automatics shouldn't exist as a category, IMHO. Pistols and Longarms would do, but there needs to be a third in there for "firearms". I'd be tempted to stick heavy weapons in there as the other, but, not sure. But that's a tad off-topic, so.

I actually had this as a houserule before but heavy weapons made the Firearms group too strong.  I'd put Gunnery in there instead, but still require a heavy weapons skill for heavy mounted weaponry.  The big hip-fired machine guns, missile launchers and indirect fire grenade launchers are different enough that they should probably have their own skill pretty much all the time.  Direct fire stuff that you look down the barrel of - pistols, rifles and mounted bullet-throwers with sights (or embedded camera in the case of remote control) all fit nicely into one group both logically and balance-wise.

I'd keep heavy weaponry out of any groups for the same reason exotic weapon (dart pistol) is on it's own.  Too much potential power in one skill to allow volume discounts.

Sorry for following you down the rabbit hole, but I thought the playtest info would be useful.

I swear I just talked about this.  Go with pistols (1 hand) long arms (2 hand) and then automatics isn't a weapon skill but rather a recoil compensation skill.  Rather than using the default natural RC, you make an Automatic + Strength [physical] test to reduce the recoil penalty.

The only problem here is you've added yet another dice roll to combat.  Our group is of the firm opinion that 5th edition has far too many dice rolls in combat and far too many dice in each roll.  I personally am also of the opinion there are already too many "necessary" skills in Shadowrun. 

IMO it would be simpler to keep RC calculated as it is and add machine pistols (pistols), sub-machine guns and assault rifles (longarms) as specializations.

[tytalan]

The more I read Data trails the more I see it as primary an GM's book.  not only is it one of the smallest books but the biggest sections are about Deep Running and A.I.'s.  I think what we need is another book one that they are not afraid of a high page count possibly a combination Decker/Technomancer.  A book that includes rules not only for constructing but also customizing cyberdecks.  Rules for writing new programs and Agents as well as something more advance than Agents.  Maybe even a section on the next generation cyberwear Deck.

Also Technomancers toys like better Ecco's and more advance Sprites, in 3rd they were called demon's. Check out the Technomancers thread for more suggestions.     

[FasterN8]

I swear I just talked about this.  Go with pistols (1 hand) long arms (2 hand) and then automatics isn't a weapon skill but rather a recoil compensation skill. 

Yes exactly.  Sorry I should have elaborated.  We also eliminated the automatics skill, threw in gunnery to preserve the 3-skill Firearms group and instead made a 2-level positive quality "Automatics Training" for 1 or 2 points of recoil compensation. 

Nice and balanced and no extra rolls.

[CitizenJoe]

Re: extra rolling of dice.  I have found that people that take an automatics build don't care how many dice they are rolling and even prefer more dice. 

I also think there is a way to combine things into a single pass.  Regardless,  you don't have to roll it, many gun builds completely eliminate recoil and if you do roll, you certainly don't need a ping back from the GM on results. The GM input is what slows down dice rolling. 

[tytalan]

Can we get off the Gun kick and get back on topic.  If you want to talk about gun skills start another topic.  some of us are still talking about cyberdecks and deckers.

Thank you

[Squirrel]

With prizes as they are, why do shadow runs that consist of anything else than stealing decks?
You cannot carry such an item around and stay alive for long. Unrealistic high monetary costs of gear as a game balance moderation will create all these implausibilities.
While 4th has its issues I do prefer the cheap decking tools for "realism" sake (yeah, yeah magic, bla bla...). The dedicated decker is not hindered in its existence by his/her gear being cheap.
Yes, others can bleed into that competency but so can each one with a gun into the Sam's territory. And we don't pay 400k for a rifle.
Same is true for face stuff.

If you as a group of gamers can't agree among yourselves that you leave the role of hacking to one of your members only so that person has her/his screen time alone.  Then something is fundamentally wrong with your attitudes towards each other. Talk to each other how you want to distribute skills/roles/equip/magic etc. amongst you and just play together. Then the rule book does not have to teach you with ridiculous rules how to be a decent human being and not steal their fun.

[Moonshine Fox]

Has anyone done a breakdown of what the various parts of a deck cost? If we have an estimate for each device rating, program use slot, and ASDF point we'd be a lot closer to laying the foundation for build-your-deck adventures.

[CitizenJoe]

Re: stealing decks.  I've brought that up and people called me paranoid.  Anyway, the control device on your deck from your commlink tends to keep the deck far enough away to dissuade theft.

[FasterN8]

Has anyone done a breakdown of what the various parts of a deck cost? If we have an estimate for each device rating, program use slot, and ASDF point we'd be a lot closer to laying the foundation for build-your-deck adventures.

I'm working on that, but it's not a linear cost per DR or ASDF point (clearly).  I was hoping there would be some underlying formula but even if there is one to be found it'll probably be easier to just reference a table.  It's not like any Decker is going to do an upgrade except every few runs. 

[CitizenJoe]

I thought you could reconfigure ASDF on the fly.

[jim1701]

I thought you could reconfigure ASDF on the fly.

I think he's referring to increasing the total number of ASDF points on a deck.  Chrome Flesh lets you do that once at a fairly significant cost IMO.  Personally I'd prefer something more open ended even if it is more expensive.

[CitizenJoe]

I haven't figured out why the +1 +2 +3 +4 is required.  Why can't it be an even split? But related to the price question, how can you work out the price for each if they are reconfigurable.