[Moonshine Fox]

Each point in the ASDF set would have to be the same price, otherwise it leaves it open for too much abuse. Maybe a lower cost if that particular stat is set and can't be changed on the fly.

[FasterN8]

I haven't figured out why the +1 +2 +3 +4 is required.  Why can't it be an even split? But related to the price question, how can you work out the price for each if they are reconfigurable.

It wouldn't be a price for your Attack or Sleaze specifically, the cost function would be for your high hand (best number), second, third and 4th stat.  Choosing a fixed array would obviously give you a major discount, but for the non-fixed decks, those numbers are just numbers, not tied to a specific stat, so they couldn't be costed in that way.

It's also important when working out the upgrade rules to iron out any loopholes.  For example, making something with a fixed array is clearly less costly, and a deck with a flat stat-line (4444) might also be cheaper.  So combining those 2 might make something mechanically and monetarily better than the base decks.  That kind of thing needs to be avoided in any upgrade system. 

[Halinn]

Should probably be exponential in some way with regards to the costs. A 3333 deck is significantly worse than 5511 would be, so it should also be cheaper.

[falar]

I always thought of them working something like skills or attributes. Let's say you have six attributes to a deck:

Device Rating
Programs
Array 1
Array 2
Array 3
Array 4

Array costs something like - each level is 3xNew Level rating. So a level 1 is 3 Build points. Level 2 is a total of 9 build points. Level 3 is a total of 18 build points. Level 4 is a total of 30 build points.

Device Rating and Programs are both more expensive. On the order of 5xNew Level, so like attributes.

All cyberdecks have a place for a module and a place to wire a module in. So let's call each of those a 10 BP quality.

So, for this, a DR 3 with 3 3 3 3 and 1 program would be ...

30 + 72 + 5 + 10 + 10 = 127 build points.

A DR 3 with 5 5 1 1 and 1 program would be ...

30 + 96 + 5 + 10 + 10 = 141 build points.

Then you could do things like say - if you lock your array, it's 2xLevel to improve instead. So a locked 3 3 3 3 would be 30 + 68 + 5 + 10 + 10 = 113 BP?

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Not sure if it is balanced, but I like the BP idea. Final cost being based of BP*X amount of nueyen (50k at minimum).

[CitizenJoe]

Is the array a sum to ten or is it always 1 to 4? I know that there are game mechanics reasons for it, but what is the game world justification?

[Hobbes]

I always thought of them working something like skills or attributes. Let's say you have six attributes to a deck:

Device Rating
Programs
Array 1
Array 2
Array 3
Array 4

Array costs something like - each level is 3xNew Level rating. So a level 1 is 3 Build points. Level 2 is a total of 9 build points. Level 3 is a total of 18 build points. Level 4 is a total of 30 build points.

Device Rating and Programs are both more expensive. On the order of 5xNew Level, so like attributes.

All cyberdecks have a place for a module and a place to wire a module in. So let's call each of those a 10 BP quality.

So, for this, a DR 3 with 3 3 3 3 and 1 program would be ...

30 + 72 + 5 + 10 + 10 = 127 build points.

A DR 3 with 5 5 1 1 and 1 program would be ...

30 + 96 + 5 + 10 + 10 = 141 build points.

Then you could do things like say - if you lock your array, it's 2xLevel to improve instead. So a locked 3 3 3 3 would be 30 + 68 + 5 + 10 + 10 = 113 BP?

Deckers don't really benefit from more flexibility on deck construction.  You can already get almost whatever array you want with the current options, with a soft link to Device Rating and Programs.  As Attributes get higher so does DR and # of Programs, along with increased cost.  And I'm not sure that giving new players a complete custom deck construction option is a good idea, just too many traps for new players.  All 5s with a DR1 and no programs for 200 BP for example.  Or all 3s and a DR and Programs of 5 for 234? BP.   Too much potential for overspending on one area and underspending on others, unless BP are trivial costs and every decker can start with a Fairlight Excalibur equivilant.     

[FasterN8]

Deckers don't really benefit from more flexibility on deck construction.  You can already get almost whatever array you want with the current options, with a soft link to Device Rating and Programs.  As Attributes get higher so does DR and # of Programs, along with increased cost.  And I'm not sure that giving new players a complete custom deck construction option is a good idea, just too many traps for new players.  All 5s with a DR1 and no programs for 200 BP for example.  Or all 3s and a DR and Programs of 5 for 234? BP.   Too much potential for overspending on one area and underspending on others, unless BP are trivial costs and every decker can start with a Fairlight Excalibur equivilant.     

The point is to provide a more manageable upgrade path for deckers, not to create a bunch of extra work at chargen.  Besides, if you costed it properly, there would be no benefit to  building your own at chargen anyway.  But once play started it would be quite nice to be able to tinker with your deck and upgrade it piecemeal like a Sam does with his suite of cyberware, instead of trying to save and buy a whole new deck.

My thinking was to make Device rating the gateway for build points.  First you upgrade your DR and that gives you more headroom to upgrade the other parts.  Of course these upgrades would be more expensive than the "Increase a Matrix attribute" mod from data trails, but would not incur the same penalty either.  These are not hardware tricks and hacks, but fully functional upgrades.

OK, Here goes my first attempt:
Upgrading Device rating sets your cap on how many build points you may ADD to your deck.  Upgrading DR does not give you any points by itself.
DR1: (52 max BP) - $15,000 - aka scratch built)
DR2: (73 max BP) - $20,000
DR3: (94 max BP) - $25,500
DR4:(115 max BP) - $39,250
DR5: (136 max BP)  -$54,375
DR6: (160 max BP) - $73,875

BP cost for upgrading a specific attribute depends on which attribute you're upgrading
Program Slot: 5 PB per slot
High hand:     6 BP per point
Second:         4 BP per point
Third:             3 PB per point
Fourth:           2 BP per point

The cost of adding build points to your deck increases with the total BP value of your deck.
Cost per BP
15-50   - $1000
51-70   - $2000
71-90   - $3500
91-110 - $5000
111-130 - $7500
131-150 - $10,000
151+      - $20,000

A few addendums -
#1 Program Slots cannot exceed DR
#2 The High hand cannot exceed DR+3 unless you have a fixed array, then it can go up to DR+4 (fixed deck construction rules TBD)
#3 It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway.  Your low matrix attributes cannot be raised *higher* then the high matrix attributes.

All this will closely match the cost of configurable decks in the CRB and roughly equate to the configurable decks in Data Trails.

So for example, if you had the headroom already from upgrading your DR and you wanted to upgrade your highest matrix attribute by 1 point it would cost 6 build points.  Assuming you had a 100 BP deck already, those 6BP would cost you 6BP x $5000 = $30,000.

[tytalan]

I think this would be a good start but I think some new odds and ends would a grate addition and we need skill test set ups to round thing out

[FasterN8]

You could make it a skill check, but I would prefer to simply set the Decker's Hardware skill (plus spec) as the upper limit for the Matrix Attributes.  That would make the cyberdeck specialization particularly valuable.  Perhaps also set the Deckers Software skill as the upper limit for program slots. (no relevant spec here though)

[tytalan]

For Skills checks I meant to design, Build the deck. Also to write the softwere. 

[Stoneglobe]

Cyberdecks should be an expensive item but I do feel that they are perhaps slightly over priced currently. With that in mind I've put together a breakdown of all of the decks based on the total number of attribute points and program slots each has available. What this shows is that the cheapest full deck (Radio Shack PCD-5000 comes in at a cost of 3000 per attribute/program whilst the most expensive (Fairlight Paladin) comes in at a cost of 26250 per attribute/program. For the fixed rating speciality deck the spread is 2464.29 for the MCT Trainee through to 14662.96 for the Ares Echo Unlimited.

I then decided to re-cost all of the decks based on the lowest cost per attribute/program for each type (full and speciality) modified by both Device Rating and Availability taking the cheapest deck as the baseline (and therefore no price change). The calculation that I used is Attribute/Program Total x (Lowest Cost per Point +((Device Rating-Cheapest deck Device rating)x1000)+((Availability-Cheapest deck availability)x500)). Overall I'm quite happy with the results and I think they end up at a fair price for each deck. The spreadsheet with the calculations is here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hbf8CFF6XkzEqCcIT0hvq0fTd2TMdRyxaV33KWNdVWY/edit?usp=sharing

I should also be abie to work out costs of upgrading decks using this as well and will update the sheet once I get that far.

Personally I think that an even bigger problem is the cost of programs. They're far too cheap and definitely need some sort of revision in price but I've yet to tackle that one.

[Darzil]

Personally I think that an even bigger problem is the cost of programs. They're far too cheap and definitely need some sort of revision in price but I've yet to tackle that one.

Agreed. At present the choice is basically "take all of them", which is a bit crazy.

Personally I'd like Deck's to start at something like 3222 (or may 4332), aimed at someone who is street level or a secondary support hacker. You'll still be usually hitting limits at 10 dice, but at least it isn't totally useless for limit setting. (Lets put it this way, what would you say to someone who bought guns with limits as low as current starter decks!)

Taking a lot of the cost out of basic deck price, and increasing cost of programs and modifications so there are more choices to be made would be good.

[Stoneglobe]

So my brain has been working overtime on this now and I've also completed a revision of software and software design rules. They're not complete but I think that they work quite well.

1. All commercial cyberdecks now come with the common programs pre-installed. Similar to buying a PC or laptop now.

2. All hacking programs now have a rating. This rating represents the shelf life of the program. Once that shelf life has been exceeded the program is no longer viable and needs to be replaced. For commercially bought software this shelf life is rating in months. Commercial software now comes with a cost of rating² x 1000 and an availability of rating x 3R.

Rating       Cost          Availabilty
   1            1000                3R
   2            4000                6R
   3            9000                9R
   4            16000             12R
   5            25000             15R
   6            36000             18R

3. Agents also have amended costs to rating² x 2500 with availability of rating x 3R. The shelf life of a commercially bought agent is rating x 2 in months

Rating       Cost          Availabilty
   1            2500                3R
   2            10000              6R
   3            22500              9R
   4            40000             12R
   5            62500             15R
   6            90000             18R

To offset this characters are now able to design and code their own software and agents. In order to do this the character must have access to a Software Shop and the knowledge skill Software Design (specialism by piece of software or agent) and active skill Software. Creating both hacking programs and agents is a 2 stage process.

As a GM I would not allow a player to start with any character created software or agents as this would definitely change the balance I'm trying to achieve. If you wanted to allow a player to start with character created software then you could use the following ruling. The maximum number of programs/agents a character can have is equal to their Software Design skill rating. The program/agent must still be bought as though it were a commercial piece using the same price and availability outlined above and must still fit in the design rules outlined (maximum rating of Software Design skill level or 6, whichever is lower). The difference is the shelf life is that of a character designed program or agent and the updating rules would apply.

Designing Hacking Programs

Character designed programs have a reduced shelf life of rating in weeks but can be refreshed and rewritten at a reduced cost once designed and coded for the first time.

Maximum rating of a hacking program is equal to Software Design skill level or 6, whichever is lower.

To design a program calculate it's Software Design Value (SDV). The SDV for a new program is rating x 4.

Rating       SDV
   1             4
   2             8
   3             12
   4             16
   5             20
   6             24

Designing the program is done using the following test Software Design+Logic [Mental] (SDV,1 day) Extended Test. Once you've hit the threshold (SDV) on the design test you can then begin coding the program using the following test Software+Logic [Mental (SDV, 1 hour) Extended Test. Once you hit the threshold (SDV) on the coding test you now have a shiny new hacking program with a shelf life of rating in weeks.

Sometime soon your lovely new program is going to no longer be viable for use and you're going to have to update the design and recode the software. Providing you're updating the program at the same rating this will be easier to do. If you want the program at a different rating this is a new program and follows the process outlined above.

To update an existing character created hacking program follow the process above but the SDV is now only rating x 2

Designing Agents

Character designed agents have a shelf life of rating in months but can be refreshed/updated in the same way character designed hacking programs can be.

Maximum rating of an agent is equal to Software Design skill level or 6, whichever is lower.

To design an agent calculate it's Software Design Value (SDV). The SDV for a new program is rating x 6.

Rating       SDV
   1             6
   2             13
   3             18
   4             24
   5             30
   6             36

Designing the agent is done using the following test Software Design+Logic [Mental] (SDV,1 week) Extended Test. Once you've hit the threshold (SDV) on the design test you can then begin coding the agent using the following test Software+Logic [Mental (SDV, 1 day) Extended Test. Once you hit the threshold (SDV) on the coding test you now have a shiny new agent with a shelf life of rating in months.

Sometime soon your lovely new agent is going to no longer be viable for use and you're going to have to update the design and recode the software. Providing you're updating the agent at the same rating this will be easier to do. If you want the agent at a different rating this is a new program and follows the process outlined above.

To update an existing character created agent follow the process above but the SDV is now only rating x 3

Custom Designed Host Specific Software

It is also possible for a character to design a piece of software to work against a single host. This has the benefit of not only increasing the limit provided (if applicable) by the rating of the software but also provides a dice pool bonus equal to it's rating. The downside to this is that it is time consuming to do, has a very limited shelf life and is a single use (one completed or aborted run against the specific host) program.

In order to design a host specific program the character must spend time observing the host in the matrix. Obviously this is easier and more effective if the character is actually inside the host at the time. This is basically an extended matrix perception test with a threshold equal to Host Rating x 3 (or Host Rating x 2 if inside the host) with intervals of 30 minutes, yes this does mean you have to spend a lot of time observing and could easily draw attention to yourself just hanging around outside or inside - Plan carefully. Once you have succeeded on this test you have gathered enough information about the host in it's current state to be able to create the custom software. Follow the normal rules for designing a hacking program with the following differences. The shelf life of the program is 3d6 - Host Rating days with a minimum of 1 and the software can not be updated as each program is unique to the information gathered during the matrix perception tests.

[falar]

Oooh. I really dig it. It does a lot of interesting things. I think you'd want to pair it with an overall reduction in price for decks - which makes a lot of sense. The deck gives you raw computing power, but not much else. The code is what breaks into things.

The only quibble I would have is the Software Design knowledge skill. Hackers are already skill-intense enough. Keep it with Software on both tests - but make the Design test linked to Intuition and the Implementation test linked to Logic. The sales test, of course, is linked to Charisma.