[Strill]

Alchemy often has problems with drain limiting how many preparations you can make. I think I've got a way to fix that. Hermetics can summon Spirits of Man with Inherent Spell. This can be used to have the spirit cast Increase Will and Increase Logic on you. If you summon a force 6 spirit and get at least two successes, you don't even need to bind it.

At this point you'll have around 19 dice to drain resistance, allowing you to safely prepare lots of stuff, like some Increase Will and Increase Logic potions in case you need them in the field. After that, you can prepare a few batches of Increase Reflexes at Force 4 to 6 in relative safety, or make some Increase Reaction/Intuition for extra dodge and initiative. If you're looking to live on the wild side, you can stick a fireball trap on a credstick or two.

Best of all, since all of these can be touch triggered, you can mix them all together and activate all the buffs simultaneously. One simple action gets you upwards of +8 defense, and an extra 12+2d6 initiative.

Yeah that's a lot of karma for preparations, but isn't it worth it to be able to stack all those buffs at once?

[Jack_Spade]

How about you bind some spirits of man and have them at your back and call to cast these spells on you in a pinch?
Much more utility in that. 

[Strill]

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. You only need the spirit to help you with the preparations. You can dismiss it when you're done.

[bdyer]

The problem I come up with the most when trying to build alchemy builds isn't the drain, there are ways to get to the point that you can reliability soak the drain easily.

The problem is having the preparation last long enough for the entire day.  If you prep stuff at force 6 and you totally maxed out alchemy you will have about 24 dice vs 6 meaning the prep lasts for about 12 hours.  I have runs where we need to go longer than that and remaking them twice in a day is time consuming.

Not to mention that spirits and mages can identify if you have these prepared

[Strill]

The problem I come up with the most when trying to build alchemy builds isn't the drain, there are ways to get to the point that you can reliability soak the drain easily.

The problem is having the preparation last long enough for the entire day.  If you prep stuff at force 6 and you totally maxed out alchemy you will have about 24 dice vs 6 meaning the prep lasts for about 12 hours.  I have runs where we need to go longer than that and remaking them twice in a day is time consuming.

I can understand. This is where I think alchemy probably needs houserules.  Either make Fixing metamagic worth a damn or maybe make it so the duration only starts once you leave the lodge.

Not to mention that spirits and mages can identify if you have these prepared

You can just take a few turns to smudge the aura before you leave and you're fine.

[gradivus]

Face it, Alchemy is not on par with sorcery and summonig

[Strill]

Face it, Alchemy is not on par with sorcery and summonig

I don't think it needs to be. I think it can be good even with just a relatively small investment as a supplement to sorcery and summoning. For example, most of the attribute boosting spells I mentioned wouldn't even be all that great as sorcery. You lose little from learning them as preparations instead of spells, but there's a lot to gain.

For example, the build I'm looking at would have two ranks in alchemy, with a specialization in Touch.

[bdyer]

Not to mention that spirits and mages can identify if you have these prepared

You can just take a few turns to smudge the aura before you leave and you're fine.

I meant preparations before even being utilized contain your astral signature and will until you use them.  Meaning any mage who can get 3 hits on assesning will know you have an arsenal in your pocket.

[Strill]

I meant preparations before even being utilized contain your astral signature and will until you use them.  Meaning any mage who can get 3 hits on assesning will know you have an arsenal in your pocket.

Aah, well that's what biofiber pockets are for.

[Whiskeyjack]

I think it can be good even with just a relatively small investment as a supplement to sorcery and summoning. For example, most of the attribute boosting spells I mentioned wouldn't even be all that great as sorcery.

Except for the potency loss....

If you want a system that makes potion-masters cool, this isn't it. I suggest the Dresden Files RPG. Alchemy is badass in that system.

[gradivus]

Face it, Alchemy is not on par with sorcery and summonig

I don't think it needs to be. I think it can be good even with just a relatively small investment as a supplement to sorcery and summoning. For example, most of the attribute boosting spells I mentioned wouldn't even be all that great as sorcery. You lose little from learning them as preparations instead of spells, but there's a lot to gain.

For example, the build I'm looking at would have two ranks in alchemy, with a specialization in Touch.

I didn't say it was totally worthless just not on par with the other two.
At 45m a handgun isn't on pat with an assault or sniper rifle, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to use that Predator V if my assault rifle runs out of bullets.

[Jack_Spade]

@Strill
It's a question of efficiency. Alchemy costs you NY, time, drain (which is equal to healing time) and karma to learn the individual preparation spells

Summoning Spirits virtually doesn't cost you anything as the spells they use are the same you use for direct casting. Binding is expensive, but only in NY and it has so much greater utility.

But for a dabbler in Alchemy it surely is a perfectly viable solution. (Calling a level 12 spirit in the morning with lots of reagents as bribes and four spells to cast on you might still be a better investment)

[Strill]

@Strill
It's a question of efficiency. Alchemy costs you NY, time, drain (which is equal to healing time) and karma to learn the individual preparation spells

The key factor is that most of these spells aren't even worth taking as sorcery in the first place, so you're not losing much in the way of opportunity cost. I already showed how to deal with drain, and as for nuyen, what do you mean? The only nuyen costs I see are the measly 500 per spell recipe, which you could easily craft yourself.

Summoning Spirits virtually doesn't cost you anything as the spells they use are the same you use for direct casting. Binding is expensive, but only in NY and it has so much greater utility.

But for a dabbler in Alchemy it surely is a perfectly viable solution. (Calling a level 12 spirit in the morning with lots of reagents as bribes and four spells to cast on you might still be a better investment)

Doesn't that mean you're using up your single summoned spirit to do nothing apart from buffing you? Wouldn't it be better to get your buffs through alchemy and have the spirit do something else?

[Strill]

The problem I come up with the most when trying to build alchemy builds isn't the drain, there are ways to get to the point that you can reliability soak the drain easily.

The problem is having the preparation last long enough for the entire day.  If you prep stuff at force 6 and you totally maxed out alchemy you will have about 24 dice vs 6 meaning the prep lasts for about 12 hours.  I have runs where we need to go longer than that and remaking them twice in a day is time consuming.

Not to mention that spirits and mages can identify if you have these prepared

I just read that there's a spell in Hard Targets to recharge the potency of a preparation. Have you looked into that?

[gradivus]

@Strill
It's a question of efficiency. Alchemy costs you NY, time, drain (which is equal to healing time) and karma to learn the individual preparation spells

Summoning Spirits virtually doesn't cost you anything as the spells they use are the same you use for direct casting. Binding is expensive, but only in NY and it has so much greater utility.

But for a dabbler in Alchemy it surely is a perfectly viable solution. (Calling a level 12 spirit in the morning with lots of reagents as bribes and four spells to cast on you might still be a better investment)

<emphasis mine>
Why would alchemy cost more in Manhattan than in Patterson?
Couldn't resist since I'm originally from NJ and not all that enamored of NY