NEWS

Retrograde Move-by-Wire

  • 29 Replies
  • 7221 Views

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #15 on: <11-28-15/2349:45> »
Except there are people who buy used 1999 cars cause they're too cheap or don't have the money for a 2015 model.

He's not talking about finding some 10 year old used piece of ware though gradivus. He's talking about NEW ware that functions like a 10 year old piece of ware....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #16 on: <11-29-15/0035:56> »
The reaction-boosting timeline is, roughly, this:

During teh food riots, Sam saves his Japanese boss from rioters by blazing away with his gun then, when he's out of ammo, grabs a katana and hacks a path through the crowd, saving his boss. Later interviews have him credit the swordplay to his practice of Kenjutsu and his personal belief in the samurai tradition. The media takes this for a ride and a wave of nationalism spreads.

Move-by-Wire is adapted from avionics, putting the body into constant siezure, but allowing for astoundingly fluid movement when put into action. Most test subjects die, and no one can figure out why. (My Essence, noooo...)

Sam winds up moving up in his corporation (Shiawase, a sit turns out) and even starts romancing an exec's daughter. His prime rival doesn't like teh idea of "tainting" a "noble Japanese bloodline" with dirty gaijin blood, even if he has a samurai's soul.

Shenanigans.

With his boss dead and evidence found that Sam did it, his rival has him arrested. He *should* be put to death (And is forbidden from honorable suicide!), but his GF begs for his life and he is instead put into the experimental reflex program. If he dies, good, if he lives, science! Either way's a win.

Sam manages to adapt to the proceedure better than most (It being an experimental version not quite as Essence-pounding) and manages to not only survive, but thrive.

More shennanigans.

Shiawase's home office comes in after the bloodshed, arrests what's left of RIval-San, gathers up the data, and declares the whole thing a wash. They spend a decade or more, bringing the Move-by--Wire system down from a IV to a III to a II to a I, eventually managing to create Wired Reflexes that are similar, but different, and even manage to create a "reflex trigger" that allows the user to shut them off an dlive a normal life, rather than being all-fast, all-the-time.

Sam has never been (officially) found. Rival-San has never been heard from again. Wired Reflexes become a smash hit, and later MbW is released, despite being an older system, finally in a state where most people don't instantly die from the Essence hit.

So, the whole thing is effectively built *backwards*, with the highest-end cyber being first, then slowly the engineers cut off parts, cut corners, and managed to find cheaper ways of getting things done. Sort of like how a Xerox machine used to cost ten grand, but today you can buy a printer-scanner-copier for your PC for under $40.

PJ

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 101
« Reply #17 on: <11-29-15/0933:41> »
Wakshaani, thanks for the timeline.  That is cool.

Reaver, your analogy is close.  It's more like I'm taking my ABS brakes on my bike and disabling that feature.  Why would I not want ABS?  Because I don't like the way braking works with it and prefer to not use it.  And I'm willing to take the chance that comes with possibly locking up wheels in order to have the better braking option.

Continuing with that analogy, if it can be argued that a skilled rider is better at braking and thus will take chances by having ABS disabled in order to possess the better brake option (because all ABS does is prevent locking; it's a safety feature), it stands to reason that some would take chances with having the safety features (I assume are now built in) turned off for M-b-W, in order to bring the speed back up.

And tying it all together, if turning off my ABS (and returning the bike to its original braking mode) is as simple as removing the sensor on the bearing or flipping the bearing around so the sensor does not pick it up, I figured disabling whatever safety features have been implemented in M-b-W would do the same (return it to its original state); it would not require the system be rebuilt.

I appreciate the feedback, and get the general impression it's not well received.  Alas, it's not my game (haven't played in years).  This is just a mental exercise (kinda like making characters for fun), because I have loved that piece of cyber ware ever since it first debuted.


Duellist_D

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 224
« Reply #18 on: <12-01-15/1637:54> »
I also find the opposition to this idea a bit excessive.
If you want to build a MbW that is mechanically closer to how it worked in older Editions, just do it.
Coming up with an ingame explanation for it is about the easiest thing imaginable, from canned prototypes to a base model that had to be refined to make it usable, almost everything is imaginable and can be tailored to the specific tastes of each table.


Mechanic wise speaking, you just have to make sure its not strictly better than any of the alternatives.
Balancing it for a product sold in the 2070s might be difficult, but I like the idea of  maybe some old farts still running around with these.

Darzil

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 633
« Reply #19 on: <12-01-15/1741:32> »
So, the whole thing is effectively built *backwards*, with the highest-end cyber being first, then slowly the engineers cut off parts, cut corners, and managed to find cheaper ways of getting things done. Sort of like how a Xerox machine used to cost ten grand, but today you can buy a printer-scanner-copier for your PC for under $40.
It happens all over. When I worked for Ford they'd just released the new shape Fiesta in Europe. It was so well engineered they lost $2k per car sold. Over the next few years cost was cut until they made a decent profit. If you want a second hand one, it's worth going for that first couple of years!

PJ

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 101
« Reply #20 on: <12-02-15/0212:42> »
Duellist_D, appreciate it (I don't think everyone here was totally opposed, some comments seemed neutral or geared toward calming, haha!).  I agree in-game explanation is easy (and necessary); I get things changing in rpg's because sometimes things don't work; I don't get just hand-waving it and saying 'its really always been this way'.  Because like you said, some old fart will have it and is going to say 'wait! I had four levels of this, was quicker, and no skillwires!'

I did go back and re-read the descriptions for skillwires and the new move-by-wire.  I figure in-game (to go with what Wakshaani said), the reason it went from a Quickness boost (now Agility) to skillwires was the system got toned down to manageable levels.  Skillwires talks about supplementing or outright overriding your muscle movements.  I figure, the whole mechanism did just that when directing the seizure (and why it was so costly in Essence; muscles overridden all the time each and every time you moved); so they tone it down (goes to three levels and a bit more Essence friendly), and find out now that the user's muscles aren't being overridden all the time, it acts like skillwires.  Still that pesky twitching thing though...

As I don't have a gaming group, I really had no way to tell if making it a four level system with Agility bonus was balanced with mandatory TLE-x, higher Essence, but nuyen costs lower than the regular move-by-wire.  I'v already re-done it some.

Wakshaani did a great job balancing it to the other options compared to 4E; even back in 3rd, it was still the go-to option because as long as you took your drugs, no test needed.  And even if you didn't take the drugs, the test (if I recall) wasn't impossible to pass.

Wakshaani, care to share what you would have done if you did take it back to the four levels?  Anything special since the skillwires are maxed out?

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #21 on: <12-02-15/0905:06> »
Well, it got tweaked from my original design, which didn't grant a bonus D6 to Initiative at all but instead gave a flat rate (I want to say that it was +2 Reaction and +3 Iniative, but that'd hit your boost cap pretty quick, so tuning that to +1 Reaction and +4 Iniative per level would make more sense. I'd need my notes!) so a progression, there, would have given the same benefit. Skillwires of 8 wouldn't have been possible, so some other bonus would have been put in there instead, like "+2 dice added to all Defensive tests" or the like. Not sure. I'd have to fiddle around with it and do some math to see what'd be fair.

With the current version published, however, it'd likely gain another D6 of Iniative at level 4 and that'd be it.

Mind you, I just woke up, so don't take this as the best of options. :) (Now, where's my SoyCaf to get going?)

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #22 on: <12-02-15/0940:37> »
Posting BEFORE coffee???

That's dedication!
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

gradivus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1130
« Reply #23 on: <12-02-15/1428:55> »
Well, it got tweaked from my original design, which didn't grant a bonus D6 to Initiative at all but instead gave a flat rate (I want to say that it was +2 Reaction and +3 Iniative, but that'd hit your boost cap pretty quick, so tuning that to +1 Reaction and +4 Iniative per level would make more sense. I'd need my notes!) so a progression, there, would have given the same benefit. Skillwires of 8 wouldn't have been possible, so some other bonus would have been put in there instead, like "+2 dice added to all Defensive tests" or the like. Not sure. I'd have to fiddle around with it and do some math to see what'd be fair.

With the current version published, however, it'd likely gain another D6 of Iniative at level 4 and that'd be it.

Mind you, I just woke up, so don't take this as the best of options. :) (Now, where's my SoyCaf to get going?)

personally I would have liked:

MBW[1]:+1 REA +4 Initiative Skilljack[1], Skillwire[1], Ess 3
MBW[2]:+2 REA +8 Initiative Skilljack[2], Skillwire [2], Ess 4
MBW[3]: +3 REA +12 Initiative Skilljack[3]. Skillwires [3], Ess 5
MBW[4]; +4 REA +16 Initiative Skilljack[4] Skillwires[4], Ess 6

Not sure what would be fair nuyen costs.
"Speech" Thought >>Matrix<< Astral

PJ

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 101
« Reply #24 on: <12-03-15/1001:08> »
Gradivus, if you wanted to keep it simple, the first three levels could stay the same.  Level 4 would be Avail 30F and 280,000 nuyen.

No post yet from Wakshaani.  Do you think he violated corporate NDA and they got him? :)

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #25 on: <12-03-15/1215:41> »
What, for yammering? Nah. This is all discussion about something already out and how people'd like to have seen it. That'd be totally different than, "OMG you guys, in Book X, we reveal that Lofwyr is made out of chocolate!" which, you know ... Bad Things would follow. And I LOVE this job! So, not gonna roll those dice, thankyouverymuch. :)

The tricky balance for the "No dice" version of Move-by-Wire was getting the bonus just right. If Wired Reflexes give you 1+1d6 Iniative, then Boosted giving you 4 (1+3) would be worse, while 5 (1+4) would be somewhat better, when compared to the average roll of Wires. The upshot is that you never worry about where your Iniative will fall, since it's reliably fast, but that you can sometimes be beaten to teh draw by Wires, which have variable performance. Since MbW used to include Skillwire functionality, it then became easy ... +1 Reaction and +3 Initiative per level (+4 total), making it a tad worse than Wires but with the Skillwire compatability.

Somewhere in there, either I goofed when I sent the stats in, using the old +2 Reaction version (most likely) or playtesting insisted that it get extra D6 Iniative. I'm not sure which, but I'm thinking I'm to blame most likely. I had both teh cyber and the bio sections of Chrome Flesh, and wanted to include a smuch of the 4th ed stuff as possible as well as new stuff, so I had to do a *lot* of work. A mistake or two got through, and I'm willing to lay odds that it was me on that one.

Halinn

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 193
« Reply #26 on: <12-03-15/1354:45> »
What, for yammering? Nah. This is all discussion about something already out and how people'd like to have seen it. That'd be totally different than, "OMG you guys, in Book X, we reveal that Lofwyr is made out of chocolate!" which, you know ... Bad Things would follow. And I LOVE this job! So, not gonna roll those dice, thankyouverymuch. :)

So, is this a confirmation that Great Dragons aren't made out of chocolate, or just Lofwyr in particular?

PJ

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 101
« Reply #27 on: <12-03-15/1359:57> »
IMO, I don't think you messed anything up.  As it is now, the system is well balanced against wired reflexes and synaptic booster (compared to previous editions).  My line of thought was simply 'what if there was a level 4, and what if there was also a system that still made you faster (Agility/movement) but was dangerous (TLE-x)?'

As everything stands now, assuming you max out, the choices are A: 5.9 Essence/256,000 nuyen for +3/6 Reaction +3d6 Initiative (9-24 total); B: 1.5 Essence/ 285,000 nuyen for +3 Reaction +3d6 Initiative (6-21 total); C) 5 Essence/205,000 nuyen for +3 Reaction +9 +1d6 Initiative (13-18 total) and skillwires.

Each option now has distinct advantages and disadvantages that, depending on character, make them all viable.  I basically took your ball and decided there would be a niche for what I proposed, and presented it here.  I think there still is, but I'm only one guy.

If you were to go with a diceless m-b-w, I think +1Rea/+4 Ini would be the way to go.  Each level would be flat +5, compared to +2-7 (avg 4-5) with wires or boosters.  By going +3, it looks like you had to throw in a D6 or it really wouldn't be competitive.
« Last Edit: <12-03-15/1419:23> by PJ »

gradivus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1130
« Reply #28 on: <12-03-15/1414:29> »
Gradivus, if you wanted to keep it simple, the first three levels could stay the same.  Level 4 would be Avail 30F and 280,000 nuyen.

<<snipped>>

I wasn't going for what would be a fair 4th level for the MBW as presented in CF.

I would have liked it to have been diceless and so was musing about what a 4 level diceless MBW designed by yours truly would look like.

Though the change in the skillwires that I have listed probably wouldn't fly with most people.
"Speech" Thought >>Matrix<< Astral

PJ

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 101
« Reply #29 on: <12-04-15/1122:25> »
After you and Wakshaani mentioned it, I'm really liking the idea of a diceless booster.  Reminds me of the two initiative boost options in Cyberpunk (one on all the time one not; because it was not it could give a higher bonus).

By keeping four levels of move-by-wire (and diceless), wired reflexes makes even more sense as a later development.  Where the former would stage 5/10/15/20, the latter is variable (2-7/4-14/6-21), but with a potential for higher (especially with reaction enhancers) and also a bit more Essence friendly.  My only thought is rather than a straight 4 bonus, what if it was 4/5/4/5?  Since a d6 average is 3-4, would it make sense for a diceless version to be slightly higher?  Mechanics wise, it's not much more (5/11/16/22).  In-game, it offers a good run against wired reflexes for levels 1-3, with level four still being for a die hard that wants the fastest and doesn't care about the costs (in Essence and twitching), but would that put it over the top as a go-to option?

As to the skilljack add, it makes sense from a logical standpoint (why have skillwires if you can't use them?).  However, it doesn't seem to fit in with how the system was designed.  It seems the intent is you have an initiative boost with the potential to piggyback as skillwires, if you get the right accessory.