[Selentin]

New to the forums and to 5E (I played 1E/2E a ton, but haven't set foot in an SR game since then).

I've ready multiple threads where people claim, from a pure optimization perspective, that Magic: A is the "best" (against, talking from an optimization standpoint) choice.

TBH I find it a bit confusing. Doesn't it depend on whether or not you're talking a short game, or a full-length campaign? For a full-length campaign, it seems to me a character setting Abilities at a higher priority* would be superior. Attributes costs increase proportional to level, whereas, buying up more spells is a flat cost, and the number you can have is capped anyway.

Assuming the following...
- Use special attr points from your race choice to bump magic to 6
- Are playing a full-length campaign and not a convention game, one-shot, or brief mini-campaign
...how is picking attributes at a higher priority than magic not a more optimal choice? I honestly don't get it - please help.




* (useful for a mage, since every freaking attribute except, perhaps, STR, tends to be useful in some non-trivial way)

[Halinn]

Bumping down magic in favor of higher attributes means you'll also need to increase metatype priority to get those special attribute points. This leads to lower skills on top of the already lowered ones from not having magic A.

It's generally accepted that the best priority for magicians/mysads is magic A, attributes B, skills C, with D and E dependent on personal preference. Humans can do attributes A, skills B, magic C, metatype D and resources E, but there's no way for non-humans to get a good balance of magic, skills and attributes without magic A (or sum to 10)

[Selentin]

Good catch - I had an implicit, unstated assumption of Human as Metatype, which I should have made explicit, as I agree it is not really feasible with other races.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

And that is why it is generally, Magic A, blah, blah, blah. With Sum to 10 you can make all kinds of none human casters that are completely viable.

[Whiskeyjack]

CHA mages can easily dump LOG and not miss much.

LOG mages can have 1-2 CHA and still be fine because you don't usually alpha strike 8 bound spirits even as a shaman.

INT mages can dump both fairly easily but CHA is more valuable simply due to spirit binding.

All mages can dump AGI and STR. Won't miss STR, and I like to play mages who can shoot, but I'm in the minority with that.

Also 10 spells is typically really important for a versatile load out.

[Marcus]

First off plenty of folks do Attribute A instead of magic A for all the reasons you would think.
You're gonna get a couple less spells, but in the long not a big deal.
My advice Avoid Aspected magic in 5th, and avoid Alchemy.

[Medicineman]

Hmmm
It seems that You US guys agreed on something else than us Germans
 Here a lot of Chars I read of have Prio A in Attributes, very often B in Skills and C in Magic (or vice Versa)
With a Human as D or Elf /Dwarf as Prio C.
And when I check my own Chars (3 of them Full mages) all have Prio C in Magic

It seems that YMMV widely across the Sea

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Kirito99]

This may be surprise but most important thing in mage priorities is not to dump resources to E.  50 000 is barely enough to have useful armor, foci, car, electronics and so on to be competent.

[Medicineman]

This may be surprise but most important thing in mage priorities is not to dump resources to E.  50 000 is barely enough to have useful armor, foci, car, electronics and so on to be competent.

A You don't have to start fully equipped (a plain Armor Jacket is Ok for the first couple of Runs, it doesn't need to be YNT Softweave with  el. Insulation, Elektrocromatic Mod, Fireproof and a concealed Holster)
B You can take in Debt for 5 Pts which is a total fo 31.000 ¥ to buy needed Equipment
C really expensive Things (like a good Fake SIN,   beefed up Armor or a Car) can be bought after a few Runs
But yes, this surprises me, because I thought it is more Important for a Mage to be competent in things Magic (like Spellcasting and Summoning)

with a competent Dance
Medicineman

[Hobbes]

In a standard Priority character you've got to put an E somewhere and Resources is the least painful for most Magic characters.  Get a disposable Commlink, an Armored Jacket and a cheap Cycle (couple karma or Bad Debit get you enough).  Pick up a Lifestyle and a decent Fake SIN after the first run (or two).  Generally 2 points of Edge are more valuable than 44,000 Nuyen to a Human Mage. 

And for non-human mages obviously dumping Metatype isn't an option.  Attributes E or Skills E is tough start for most runners.  Honestly Skills E on a mage is going to be very frustrating to play. 

[Kirito99]

 I concur
I don't know why you assume that first couple of runs will be milk runs - season 5 missions is tough for mages , artifact rush plotline is deadly without good support.  In debt quality AFAIK is banned in missions and I do not know home game with this allowance, but if it will be possible I would take this quality - mages are glass cannons and honestly you should be well geared from the start of the campign - low physical stats should be compensated in this way. Fake SIN 4 with licences for mages is imho must have for obvious reasons.

[Medicineman]

I don't know why you assume that first couple of runs will be milk runs -

My Years of Experience maybe ?
The first Runs are neither supposed to be
  Milk Runs nor deadly Runs that end in a TPK either.

   In debt quality AFAIK is banned in missions and I do not know home game with this allowance,

And I know a lot of Rounds, not only my own ones
and not only Homerounds.
Most of Games run at  German Conventions stick to RAW and not Missions

Missions aren't the Alpha & Omega ! In fact most (I think)   Non-American Players (and there's a lot of us !! ) don't use them at all or only as Part of an ongoing Campaign (like two of the 5 SR Groups I'm in)
A lot of People play Shadowrun without the limitations and restraints of Missions Rules there's a lot of Campaigns (even from former Editions which only need some conversion) that can be played

with a free Dance
Medicineman
 

[Hobbes]

I don't presume the first runs are milk runs, I just presume you get paid for them.  If you're going to need a Fake SIN on your first run the GM should give you a heads up.  If you're playing Missions then you don't need a Fake SIN for most of them, and in the Missions that do require a fake SIN there are in game ways to acquire them written into the Mission. 

Lifestyles aren't needed until the run is over  : )   Lifestyles are really just a way of simplifying the book keeping of day to day expenses, as long as you've got a few Nuyen in your pocket you can get through a single run. 

[Medicineman]

By RAW (IIRC) you DO need a lifestyle to start ( Starting Money f.E.)
but You can start with a ...Streetlifestyle and as soon as the first Run is over, You upgrade immediately to whatever you like or can afford

with an upgrade Dance
Medicineman

[Kirito99]

By RAW (IIRC) you DO need a lifestyle to start ( Starting Money f.E.)
but You can start with a ...Streetlifestyle and as soon as the first Run is over, You upgrade immediately to whatever you like or can afford

with an upgrade Dance
Medicineman

Well that is much example of raw munchkinism, I we argue at this level I suppose should quit - there is no point to reasoning my statement with this much of metagaming.