[Novocrane]

When a character is piloting a vehicle in non-combat, or everyday situations, no test is required (unless the character is Incompetent, and then hilarity ensues). However, characters in Shadowrun often find themselves in dangerous or extreme situations with vehicles. When that happens, the character controlling the vehicle needs to make one or more Vehicle Tests.

I just can't see a zero in computers as anything other  than "Hey Tom show me how I send an SMS on this thing again? Hey Tom show me how to call up that phone app? Hey Tom this lights flashing how do I stop it . . . oh how do I charge it?". Yet most other people seem to view it as you haven't been "professionally" trained but you've picked up all the basics to play AR games, make phone calls, use the calculator etc etc but that just feels wrong to me.

I'd say they're right. Perhaps if you brought examples that were closer to professional shadowrunner grade problems, then you would need the piles of dice that come with an efficiently built archetype.

Just like the decker may not have the ability to call shots on multiple targets in less than three seconds, (but will still be sufficient for knocking over cans on a fence from 10m) the street samurai doesn't need "breaking into a host" dice pools to use MSPaint. (though they may have trouble editing a file, given the same three seconds in a skirmish)

[Darzil]

Personally I quite liked the rules that Wakshaani mentioned as being in a playtest version. What was it, one 6 or two 5's, and nothing higher than 4. You end up a lot more diverse in that case. Of course that only works if all players use it, and it makes enemies more challenging. Might need to tweak down some NPCs if this was the rule, and certainly things like Host rating.

[Senko]

When a character is piloting a vehicle in non-combat, or everyday situations, no test is required (unless the character is Incompetent, and then hilarity ensues). However, characters in Shadowrun often find themselves in dangerous or extreme situations with vehicles. When that happens, the character controlling the vehicle needs to make one or more Vehicle Tests.

I just can't see a zero in computers as anything other  than "Hey Tom show me how I send an SMS on this thing again? Hey Tom show me how to call up that phone app? Hey Tom this lights flashing how do I stop it . . . oh how do I charge it?". Yet most other people seem to view it as you haven't been "professionally" trained but you've picked up all the basics to play AR games, make phone calls, use the calculator etc etc but that just feels wrong to me.

I'd say they're right. Perhaps if you brought examples that were closer to professional shadowrunner grade problems, then you would need the piles of dice that come with an efficiently built archetype.

Just like the decker may not have the ability to call shots on multiple targets in less than three seconds, (but will still be sufficient for knocking over cans on a fence from 10m) the street samurai doesn't need "breaking into a host" dice pools to use MSPaint. (though they may have trouble editing a file, given the same three seconds in a skirmish)

Sorry I just can't see it maybe I've had too many people ask me about copy paste or making a new folder, maybe just my own memories of learning to drive and shoot but to me a -zero untrained person is not going to be knocking over cans on a fence at 10m or otherwise. To me the difference between no rating and zero is the difference between which of these pedals is the velocitator and which the deceloratrix . . . hmmm what does this third one do? and "What foul beast is this that just swallowed him whole." and NOT I can hit a tin can on a fence at 50 paces and I can't or I can drive for normal day to day operations and i can't drive at all. Its UNTRAINED pick a skill you've never learnt anything about and have a go at it or better yet find someone who know's nothing about computers and ask them to build you one that's a zero rating in hardware for you. If you treat a zero untrained as being able to perform regular functions then what skill rating is someone who GENUINELY know's nothing about that skill but isn't completely unaware such a thing could even exist?

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about the system classifies a zero as UNTRAINED and goes on to say "Though untrained, you have a general awareness of the skill, and occasionally may even be able to fake it.". Not drive regularly around town but fake that you know how to drive OCCASIONALLY yet the players treat it as generally competent in that skill. That fits far better for the rank 3 (Competent) which has the description "You’re skilled at basic operations but struggle with complex operations and “tricks.”". That is rank THREE you can do the basic operations consistently and well shoot a tin can at 10m but struggle with doing them in pressure or performing fancy maneuvers.

Descriptor wise its a 3 point difference between the systems 3 rank (competant) and the players 0 rank (competent) and that mucks things up badly for new players. As I said look at life modules you pick the modules JUST for the single role you want and you'll still wind up with 1-2 rank skills by DESIGN yet as far as the players are concerned those are an utter waste. Its a fundamental mismatch between what the system is apparently designed to operate with and what the players force it into.

[Darzil]

There is a difference between certain skills based on whether you can default or not though.

Can I build that computer? That uses Hardware, with no skill in it, no, you can't default.
Can I use that computer? That uses Computer, with no skill in it, yes, you can default.

[Senko]

Perhaps but I think my point still stands.

System View
Rank Zero = No training you can sometimes fake it (default) and sometimes can't (no default).
Rank 3  = Competant skilled in basic options but has trouble under pressure or performing trick manuevers.
Rank 6 = Professional skill level for a job you do this for a living.

Player View
Rank 0 = Can perform any basic things you might need to do.
Rank 3 = Not worth bothering with either drop it to zero or raise it to 6.
Rank 6 = JUST starting to be worth considering as a skill but you better specialize and add qualities and other bonuses to add 4+ dice to anything you'd do regularly.

The two don't match up and as I said this causes problems for new players or those of us who prefer our character to have some skills with lower dice pools and primary skills in the 10-12 range for new runners. Sure your competant but your not going to have them beating down the door to hire you and only you.

[PJ]

Rather than more points in active skills, what would consolidating look like?

-Change etiquette to Cha+Int.  allow knowledge skills to provide bonuses for subcultures.
-Make perception like a defense test, Log+Int(+Wil when active).  Throw in qualities that might switch the Wil attribute.
-Call medicine surgery, make biotechnology and cybertechnology knowledges (modules have medicine already as a knowledge), and add chemistry to the biotech group which is now chemistry, first aid, surgery.
-Merge Firearms into a single skill, small arms.  Firearms is now gunnery, heavy weapons, small arms.
-Merge blades and clubs into armed combat, archery and throwing into targeting.  Close Combat is now armed combat, targeting, unarmed combat.
-Add negotiation and instruction as specializations of leadership. Influence becomes con, intimidation, leadership.
-Free-fall and dive become specializations of gymnastics and swimming.
-Acting becomes disguise, impersonation, performance.
-Switch escape artist with disguise in Stealth.
-New group, Combat Engineer.  Armorer, demolitions, industrial mechanics.
-Drop industrial mechanics from Engineering and call it Vehicular Engineering (or just leave it, not game breaking).
-If keeping perception, merge with Outdoors and make navigation a survival specialization.

Finally, make the default to a skill rule -2 if using a skill, -1 if using a group.

That's off top of my head, no access to books right now.

[Hobbes]

Perhaps but I think my point still stands.

System View
Rank Zero = No training you can sometimes fake it (default) and sometimes can't (no default).
Rank 3  = Competant skilled in basic options but has trouble under pressure or performing trick manuevers.
Rank 6 = Professional skill level for a job you do this for a living.

Player View
Rank 0 = Can perform any basic things you might need to do.
Rank 3 = Not worth bothering with either drop it to zero or raise it to 6.
Rank 6 = JUST starting to be worth considering as a skill but you better specialize and add qualities and other bonuses to add 4+ dice to anything you'd do regularly.

The two don't match up and as I said this causes problems for new players or those of us who prefer our character to have some skills with lower dice pools and primary skills in the 10-12 range for new runners. Sure your competant but your not going to have them beating down the door to hire you and only you.

Mechanically the number of ranks in a skill only matter for a couple things, like teamwork tests or First Aid checks.  What matters is the total dice pool and is the skill opposed or not, and the quality of the opposition. 

With Augmentations or magical attribute boosts players frequently have 8 or more in an Attribute, so even if they just throw a single point into an unopposed skill they're routinely doing average to difficult things.  Some Metahumans with a maxed out Augmented attribute of 11 would have a dice pool of 10 on a default an be better at something than a "Professional".  There are a fair number of skills that are just fine with one or two ranks in them.  Thus the popularity of Jack of all Trades.

[Whiskeyjack]

The reason for this is that one of the most common character backgrounds (former military) is actually really skill intensive. There are a lot of skills that such should have that there really isn't room to have under the current skill points without really hampering core skills for role.

On the flipside, having all the skills a former soldier would have results in you having like 5-7 combat skills, which is terribly redundant.

The mechanics actively penalize building realistic characters from this fairly common background. That's not a good thing.

[Senko]

Perhaps but I think my point still stands.

System View
Rank Zero = No training you can sometimes fake it (default) and sometimes can't (no default).
Rank 3  = Competant skilled in basic options but has trouble under pressure or performing trick manuevers.
Rank 6 = Professional skill level for a job you do this for a living.

Player View
Rank 0 = Can perform any basic things you might need to do.
Rank 3 = Not worth bothering with either drop it to zero or raise it to 6.
Rank 6 = JUST starting to be worth considering as a skill but you better specialize and add qualities and other bonuses to add 4+ dice to anything you'd do regularly.

The two don't match up and as I said this causes problems for new players or those of us who prefer our character to have some skills with lower dice pools and primary skills in the 10-12 range for new runners. Sure your competant but your not going to have them beating down the door to hire you and only you.

Mechanically the number of ranks in a skill only matter for a couple things, like teamwork tests or First Aid checks.  What matters is the total dice pool and is the skill opposed or not, and the quality of the opposition. 

With Augmentations or magical attribute boosts players frequently have 8 or more in an Attribute, so even if they just throw a single point into an unopposed skill they're routinely doing average to difficult things.  Some Metahumans with a maxed out Augmented attribute of 11 would have a dice pool of 10 on a default an be better at something than a "Professional".  There are a fair number of skills that are just fine with one or two ranks in them.  Thus the popularity of Jack of all Trades.

Post a build for say a mage or decker with secondary skills of 1-2 and see how well received it gets please. Serious request I'm not a good theory crafter and I'm curious how well something with a high number of "high requireemnt" skills character would do if you gave them say computer or first aid 3 or if you'd be told to drop those "unnecessary" skills to put the points into a "recommended" specialization.

[Whiskeyjack]

It really depends on the value of the secondary skill.

A LOG tradition mage with LOG in the 6-8 range, might get some value out of a post-chargen purchase of Computer 1 with karma. But it's not a good use of a skill point, because of how the chargen minigame works. I usually discourage people from spending skill points on level 1 skills for that reason, and because most skills at 1 (to "dabble") usually puts you in a bad position if that skill is part of an opposed test. First Aid's rules hamstring itself, but I have seen characters with low ranks get value out of medkits to prevent bleeding out, but that's about it.

[Hobbes]

The number of skills is fine.

The skill points (for Priority) do need to go up to something like the following.

A- 50 / 10
B- 45 / 8
C- 40 / 6
D- 35 / 4
E- 30 / 2

The reason for this is that one of the most common character backgrounds (former military) is actually really skill intensive. There are a lot of skills that such should have that there really isn't room to have under the current skill points without really hampering core skills for role.

And under the current system specialized builds start taking E or D in skills, while more generalized builds still over invest in Skills.  A skills is still a trap, even with a couple more skill points. 

Something like this helps the specialized builds more than the generalist builds.  For an across the board buff, I'd rather the generalized builds be improved more than the specialized builds since the generalist builds tend to be less mechanically efficient.

Shadowrun 5th edition has around 15 Group skills, 70 active skills, and literally an uncountable number of Knowledge skills.  Quick math for a true "Jack of all Trades" character.  Lots of skills, decent Stats, little to no magic or augments.  You'd need around 40 Group Skill points and another 30 to 40 individual skill points to get a character that has a 4 in every skill and 4 in each stat.  'Grats, you've got a character that costs around a thousand Karma and has no dice pool above 10.  Skills are a giant black hole of resources, even my suggestion that cuts the number of skills in half doesn't change it that much.  Over investing / poorly allocating skills is the most common mechanical trap in 5th edition. 

If you increased Skills A to 100/20 you'd still be able to wind up with a character that has a terrible skill allocation.  If you put an "A" into Metatype you get the Metatype you want, if you put an A into Magic, *poof* you're a Wizard.  An A in Stats you have good stats, A into Resources you can only screw up if you deliberately piss away Nuyen.  If you put a double A into skills and you're still only half way to your mechanically inefficient concept the issue isn't the number of skill points. 

[Hobbes]

Perhaps but I think my point still stands.

System View
Rank Zero = No training you can sometimes fake it (default) and sometimes can't (no default).
Rank 3  = Competant skilled in basic options but has trouble under pressure or performing trick manuevers.
Rank 6 = Professional skill level for a job you do this for a living.

Player View
Rank 0 = Can perform any basic things you might need to do.
Rank 3 = Not worth bothering with either drop it to zero or raise it to 6.
Rank 6 = JUST starting to be worth considering as a skill but you better specialize and add qualities and other bonuses to add 4+ dice to anything you'd do regularly.

The two don't match up and as I said this causes problems for new players or those of us who prefer our character to have some skills with lower dice pools and primary skills in the 10-12 range for new runners. Sure your competant but your not going to have them beating down the door to hire you and only you.

Mechanically the number of ranks in a skill only matter for a couple things, like teamwork tests or First Aid checks.  What matters is the total dice pool and is the skill opposed or not, and the quality of the opposition. 

With Augmentations or magical attribute boosts players frequently have 8 or more in an Attribute, so even if they just throw a single point into an unopposed skill they're routinely doing average to difficult things.  Some Metahumans with a maxed out Augmented attribute of 11 would have a dice pool of 10 on a default an be better at something than a "Professional".  There are a fair number of skills that are just fine with one or two ranks in them.  Thus the popularity of Jack of all Trades.

Post a build for say a mage or decker with secondary skills of 1-2 and see how well received it gets please. Serious request I'm not a good theory crafter and I'm curious how well something with a high number of "high requireemnt" skills character would do if you gave them say computer or first aid 3 or if you'd be told to drop those "unnecessary" skills to put the points into a "recommended" specialization.

Yeah, it depends on your definition of "Secondary" I guess.  I wouldn't consider Computer secondary for a decker, it's actually the most commonly checked skill for a Decker (Matrix Search and Matrix Perception are usually the most common Matrix Action.)   Secondary would be skills like Hardware or Demolitions and a Decker with an 8 Logic does fine in those skills with a couple points.  They're unopposed and you can do useful things with one or two hits.  First Aid is a different story because of the way First Aid works, you need a higher investment in First aid to be better than a med-kit. 

[All4BigGuns]

Perhaps but I think my point still stands.

System View
Rank Zero = No training you can sometimes fake it (default) and sometimes can't (no default).
Rank 3  = Competant skilled in basic options but has trouble under pressure or performing trick manuevers.
Rank 6 = Professional skill level for a job you do this for a living.

Player View
Rank 0 = Can perform any basic things you might need to do.
Rank 3 = Not worth bothering with either drop it to zero or raise it to 6.
Rank 6 = JUST starting to be worth considering as a skill but you better specialize and add qualities and other bonuses to add 4+ dice to anything you'd do regularly.

The two don't match up and as I said this causes problems for new players or those of us who prefer our character to have some skills with lower dice pools and primary skills in the 10-12 range for new runners. Sure your competant but your not going to have them beating down the door to hire you and only you.

You're disconnect is coming from the fact that you seem to be considering a starting character as a "wet behind the ears" rookie. They aren't. They are experienced professionals very well trained in what their role on the runner team is.

Look at life modules, pick a bunch of them based on story rather than what they give and look at the character that results, heck look at the skill increases you get for each module. Make a character with normal priority then make one based on Theme with life modules ignoring what you actually get and compare the two before you spend karma.

What the game system and developer intention seems to be aiming at is markedly different from what the players seem to think you should have.

The life modules do not produce a 'living breathing character'. They produce a character that at the point a starting character is in their career, they would not still be alive due to having PoS skill values that aren't even professional and attributes that are so woefully low after modules that it takes the vast majority of remaining karma to get those up to decent. Life Modules is the main culprit suffering from 'One True Build' syndrome.

I agree with this especially because of the mental/emotional disconnect between how shadowrun handles skills and how the gamers handle them. Look at the skill examples in the core book . . .

NO Rating: Unaware.
0: Untrained.
1: Beginner.
2: Novice.
3: Competant.
4: Proficient.
5: Skilled.
6: Professional.
7: Veteran.
8: Expert.
9: Excpeptional.
10: Elite.
11: Legenderay.
12-13: Apex.

I read that and think for my starting runner I can safely look at 1-4 for most skills and have maybe 1 or 2 "Professional" level skills throw in that the "human" example has attributes no higher than 4 and my inital assumption was a skill pool of 10-12 is fine with a 7 in secondary skills. Then I come here and get told no that's bad, wrong, fun and you can't contribute anything with skill levels that low you should be aiming for 16+ in your primary rolls and 12+ in any secondary ones from character creation. I know there are some who disagree with that approach but the point is low skill levels are going to be very appealing to most new players because that's what the book seems to indicate is the norm for a regular runner.

For me even now with the knowledge drummed into me that you should "maximise" your character so you only have a few very good skills and high attributes because you can "default" a roll I still feel more comfortable with the multi-skilled generalist. I don't want every skill and knowledge for amazo the amazing do it all but there is just so much out there that I look at what I'm getting and what the game classifies things as and I do want that to make my character feel like a real, breathing character rather than just a set of numbers I couldn't care less about.

I do feel every character should have 3 computers because really in a massively connected world like shadowrun who ISN'T going to be "Competant" at computer use (outside of special concepts like a shifter come in from the wild or the like), sure you may not know anything about the hardware and software but you are going to know how to use that off the shelf comlink. I like a 1 or 2 in first aid to represent basic training even if you aren't a paramedic, I feel a 3 or 4 should be fine for a firearms skill if you aren't the street sam not to mention all the basic skills like con, etiquette, negotiation. Instead we seem to get a sort of arms war where the players are forced to have a 6 + specialization + qualities + max ability + random ass pull to be considered "competant" against a standard foe. Which doesn't even consider the more skill intensive backgrounds/roles I hate being told your mage shouldn't have ritual/arcana/X because its not necessary or game mechanics wise is a poor choice I'm trying to make a trained magic user and they never ONCE considered maybe they should get basic training in astral combat or banishing?

I just can't see a zero in computers as anything other  than "Hey Tom show me how I send an SMS on this thing again? Hey Tom show me how to call up that phone app? Hey Tom this lights flashing how do I stop it . . . oh how do I charge it?". Yet most other people seem to view it as you haven't been "professionally" trained but you've picked up all the basics to play AR games, make phone calls, use the calculator etc etc but that just feels wrong to me.

Honestly I'd be happy with either more skills so I can get my specialization and nice little extras OR more games where you go out with a 2-4 ability + 3-6 primary skill for a total of 5-10 dice as a starting runner against a regular foe and a 12+ is considered an amazing figure well on their way to prime runner status instead of the current situation. This would also allow more dual roles, more unusual concepts like the decker/mage or simply people to have skills spare to take fun little extra's like artisian to represent they know how to draw/sing/cook at something bewteen "Well I'm no chef but I can throw meat on two slices of bread." and "I'm a 5 star gourmet chef." levels.

The Rating 3 'competent' would be the equivalent of what someone would be graduating high school with. Once out in the real world, whether after higher education or immediately, they should be at the Rating 6 equivalent pretty quick or they won't be in their job much longer (or they'll be dead if their job is Runner).

Now every character probably should have that 'competent' rating in Computer, social skills (for non-Face), a 'shootie' skill (for non-combatants) and Athletics, but again the points are set far too low to have a character both 'breathing' and worth playing in their role.



@Whiskeyjack and Hobbes:
The only reason for someone to even CONSIDER "efficiency" is woefully low point totals. The more points most people have, the less they'll worry about that.

[Whiskeyjack]

@Whiskeyjack and Hobbes:
The only reason for someone to even CONSIDER "efficiency" is woefully low point totals. The more points most people have, the less they'll worry about that.

Even if all skill priorities had markedly higher allocation values, I would still say that some skills would still be too-lave to invest any points in barring huge edge cases, that taking more than 2-3 combat skills was a huge redundancy trap, that First Aid <~4 isn't worth it, and that you don't need Computer to google a restaurant. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[All4BigGuns]

@Whiskeyjack and Hobbes:
The only reason for someone to even CONSIDER "efficiency" is woefully low point totals. The more points most people have, the less they'll worry about that.

Even if all skill priorities had markedly higher allocation values, I would still say that some skills would still be too-lave to invest any points in barring huge edge cases, that taking more than 2-3 combat skills was a huge redundancy trap, that First Aid <~4 isn't worth it, and that you don't need Computer to google a restaurant. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There will always view any game in the terms that you are doing so here, which is why developers have, in recent years, severely curtailed the number of points granted, but for most giving more points just makes that thought process unnecessary.