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Value of a megacorp

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Prodigy

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« on: <12-10-15/2347:34> »
This may have been a topic before, but what is the value of a megacorp?

For instance, an A level Corp may be valued in the billions of nuyen

An AA Corp 10s of billions

A AAA corp in trillions?

What are your thoughts?

Reaver

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« Reply #1 on: <12-11-15/0034:37> »
Depends on how you want to look at it.
The fluff figure is that the ten AAA rated corps represent roughly 80% of the world economic value. The rest is split by the rest. IF that is true then all yo have to do is figure out the world economic value.... which is never fully discussed.

But, if you want to go by the current  RL values, you have an estimated 2014 world GDP of 77.609 trillion or a PPP value of 106.998 trillion.

Which means the big 10 have a value of 62 trillion GDP or 85.5 trillion PPP

And yes, that makes them VERY big fish in a VERY small pond...
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Senko

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« Reply #2 on: <12-11-15/0434:55> »
What about the contenders?

I recall seeing there were some AA corps e.g. Sony who had the resources, etc to match the AAA's but didn't have a council seat and so weren't AAA rated but were jokying to get it.

Sendaz

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« Reply #3 on: <12-11-15/0450:17> »
Also remember that to get that A rating or above you must be a multinational corporation in at least two or more countries to qualify, so it is not solely how much nuyen you have but how far your reach & influence is.

So you could have a very big corporation with a multi-billion nuyen portfolio, but if you limit yourself to operations just within the UCAS you can never get A Status.

Once the multinational corporation has established strong links in several countries they could get the bump to AA but then you hit the crystal ceiling as getting into AAA club is a bit harder.

7 of the seats are held by permanent members and the rest got voted in by the AAA's so you can imagine it as the ultimate old boys club. 
Again it is not just about your bank account, but rather the power you wield to finagle a place.

But like Reaver points out, the AAA do tend to hold the majority of the pot, though getting exact figures is a bit difficult as there are a lot of shell companies and other blinds and tax shelters used by the various corps.

« Last Edit: <12-11-15/0501:04> by Sendaz »
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Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <12-11-15/0531:09> »
Yea, like I said, its a fluff number of 80%.
 There has never been a release of the total networth of any mega, so it really is a crap shoot as to what the values are, or if that 80% is really true. (And that was corp download 3e. If 4e they just say things like "vast majority")

Also, like today, (as Sendaz mentions) a AAA mega owns hundreds to thousands of other corps in its umbera reach. And those 'other corps' could be AA megas in their own right...

Also remember, the line between AA and AAA is basically a seat on the CC.... and you have to be voted in! Which makes it just about impossible..... Horizon was the last one voted in, despite being "just barely a AA corp"
« Last Edit: <12-11-15/0648:36> by Reaver »
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #5 on: <12-11-15/1348:34> »
There's been a mention about Renraku's total income for a year, however, back in the first Corporate Download. It was about 70% of what Wal-Mart's was five years ago. :)

As for AA vs AAA, the only *actual* difference is that the Trips have a seat on the corporate council (And, through that, access to the Z-O bank) ... that's it. There are plenty of AA-rated corps with finances that rival the Big Ten, and the lower rungs, like Horizon, actually have to look *up* at the biggest Double-A's!

I'd be willing to bet that you'll see more about that when Market Panic rolls out, but, just something to keep in mind.

PeterSmith

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« Reply #6 on: <12-11-15/1652:51> »
There's been a mention about Renraku's total income for a year, however, back in the first Corporate Download. It was about 70% of what Wal-Mart's was five years ago.

That last part, by the way, is why hard numbers are dangerous to throw out. You start to pull back the curtain, you start to see how out whack the world is. Think clips vs. magazines.
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Reaver

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« Reply #7 on: <12-11-15/1703:08> »
I remember the OLD school Star trek tech manual. It listed the computing power of the T.O.S Enterprise.... which was a little less then a 486 computer.... :P

Since then, they don't really list things like that anymore just to avoid getting laughed at :D
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #8 on: <12-12-15/0036:50> »
Ayup. It's why we don't really define tech-terms or start laying out weapon calibres. It just never ends well. :)

Jimmy_Pvish

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« Reply #9 on: <12-13-15/1202:21> »
Yes, given hard numbers always not end well in any future setting.

"3 megabytes of hot RAM" in Neuromancer still make me feel uneasy at this day.

Nath

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« Reply #10 on: <12-13-15/1707:55> »
I don't know what sourcebooks would feature the aforementioned 80% figure or Renraku annual income. Corporate Shadowfiles and Corporate Download on the other hand, do feature similar information.
Quote
Corporate Shadowfiles, page 16
According to the most common definitions, a true megacorporation has a cash flow and degree of world influence roughly equivalent to that of a late 20th century nation-state. Using this definition, twenty five true megacorporations exist today.

>>>>>[This definition makes sense to me. For example, the entire MCT "empire" has an annual cash flow of about 95 billion nuyen, several times the GNP of Ireland. Please note that's cash flow. The figure for total assets is much higher.]<<<<<
-The Chromed Accountant (10:25:15/3-26-54)

>>>>>[Where the frag did you get that figure, Chrome? Thats's way above published data..]<<<<<
-Margo (05:26:21/4-1-54)

>>>>>[The figure above is published data, but also short of the true amount. I imagine that some of my one-time colleagues are also curious as to your source of information.]<<<<<
-Mitsuhama Refugee (19:00:28/4-7-54)
Quote
Corporate Download, page 9
Right now, the Big Ten control more resources than all the other corporations in the world put together.

Corporate Download, page 16
The amount of assets the Big Ten claim is almost beyond scale, easily accounting for at least a quarter of the world's wealth (in all likelihood, this figure is much higher, especially if you estimate secrets funds and hidden ownership).
Please note those quotes are respectively referring to cash flow, control of resources by corporations and assets/world wealth.

Cash flow ought to refer to free cash flow, the sum of operational cash flow (add up incomes minus expenses and taxes), investment cash flow (minus assets acquisition) and financing cash flow (add up capital raised, minus dividends and stock buyback).

Cash flow is not very useful to figure out the size of a corporation, its number of employees or its sales. Only a very large corporation may reach a very large cash flow, or an abysmally low-one. But an equally or even larger corporation can have a cash flow close to zero because it balanced revenues and payments. Cash flow may not even represent how successful a corporation is, since it is calculated after dividends were paid. However, since money has to be used somehow, free cash flow is usually a good indication of dividends or stock buybacks for the years to come (which in turn would cause the cash flow to turn negative, as the corporations may pay more dividends than what it earned that year, using leftovers from the previous years, without the corporation being any less successful).

95 billion nuyen, assuming a 2050-2075 nuyen worth about the same as a 1990-2015 US dollar, would be impressive but not mega-impressive. Apple, Inc. had a cash flow around 50 billions dollar in the past few years, which is widely considered insane (partly due to profits stored in subsidiaries outside the US to avoid taxes, that cannot be used to pay dividends). The top league has cash flow closer to the 15-35 billion range.

To compare corporations and countries, cash flow should be compared to the balance of payments (to compare corporations and governments, that would be the balance of budget, which is rarely positive). The balance of payments is also difficult to relate to how big an economy is (the US for instance, is the largest economy in the world while having not only a negative balance of payments, but the lowest of any country in the world).

The Big Ten controlling more resources than all the other corporations in the world can mean pretty much anything. Are employees counted as resources? Are they valued accordingly to their skill? Does Lofwyr analytic mind counts as a resource for S-K and how much does it worth? What about the non-measurable influence megacorporations may have over politicians who technically control access to natural resources? There are resources like Matrix grids or military assets whose market value may low because of their cost, but who are strategic resources nonetheless.

As for world wealth, current estimates put it in the hundreds of trillion dollar (I've seen estimates ranging form 100 to 250 trillion). It also a tricky number to use, since debt is deduced from wealth (so technically the poorest person in the world is not going to be a Sudanese refugee with a 0$ wealth: in 2013, it may well have been French ex-trader Jérôme Kerviel who had a debt of 4.9 billion euro to repay to his former employer).
A while ago, I had calculated the top ten banks would nowadays owns assets whose value would be 18% of the world's wealth (through according to a conservative estimate of 120 trillion dollar). However, these banks' assets are mostly debts owed to them, which should actually be excluded from wealth calculation (which also means the Corporate Download estimation should have left out the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank activities as well as all AAA owned banks and insurances). Excluding banking and insurance business, it would take assets from about the 250 largest companies to make up for a quarter of the world's wealth.

Reaver

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« Reply #11 on: <12-13-15/1743:02> »
@Nath

the numbers I pulled up were from here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_economy

yea, I know it Wikipedia... not the best source, but it is the fastest.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Senko

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« Reply #12 on: <12-13-15/1930:30> »
Yes, given hard numbers always not end well in any future setting.

"3 megabytes of hot RAM" in Neuromancer still make me feel uneasy at this day.

I know that feeling I just saw two 'old' movies on TV (Hackers and one I missed the title on). Hackers had the phone phreaking and all those big bulky laptops hooked up to the payphones while the other one had a university professor coming home to boast to his family that he uni just got a mainframe with a whole 512kb of dedicated program memory.

@Nath
I recall a little descriptive bit in one of the books about an employee receiving an automated "You're fired" message because the company when hiring him had worked out the exact moment he gained enough skill and ability to go from earning them money to earning himself money, relatively speaking he was obviously always earning money but this was the cut off point where paying him cost more than his job earnt them. So I'd say yes employee's are considered resources.
« Last Edit: <12-13-15/1934:15> by Senko »

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #13 on: <12-14-15/0718:47> »
Reporting low cash flow is could be a tax dodge.