[falar]

Earlier this week, Wakshaani mentioned something about small PDFs that got my brain going. As I recall, he said they really don't make much money, so they're not something that makes sense for Catalyst to spend much time or development on. On the other hand, I know there's a ton of stuff that I would like to see that makes more sense as small PDFs - like a dummies guide to rigging with explanations of each roll you would make and a couple of drones or some more options for RCCs and VCRs. I get the feeling others in the Shadowrun community would agree with that desire.

So - how do you make money on small PDFs? That's not a new question and it's something that one of my favorite RPG companies dealt with. Evil Hat had always heard demand for short Fate books that were either worlds or small rules expansions, but whenever they put something out, it never recouped their investment. Then Patreon came about and, after the success of their Fate Kickstarter, they started a campaign to make Worlds for Fate and it's been wildly successful - they've put out eleven worlds in the last year, all of them paid for in full.

That being said, do you think there's appetite for such a thing in the Shadowrun community? Would people pledge 5 bucks a month for high-quality, monthly small works of Shadowrun?

I figure Catalyst's biggest problem with doing this would be their lack of credibility for high-quality work. But it could also be an avenue for them to take back a lot of ground that they have lost. Not that this post is going to do anything, but I wondered about the appetite for it.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Might be a dumb question, but what is Patreon? I've heard of Kickstarter, is it similar?

[Duellist_D]

Absolutely not.
This smells like a huge cashgrab even more disgusting than "enhanced fiction".
Besides, CGLs quality of Editing is far away from the point where the trust advancement of a quasi book-subscription would be justified.

I really really don't want the DLC cancer spreading from Videogames into the RPG Sector.

[Zweiblumen]

Might be a dumb question, but what is Patreon? I've heard of Kickstarter, is it similar?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=patreon

But to actually answer the question, it's a place where you can pledge money to artist to produce work.  It's a crowdsourced version of having a patron pay for you to do art and allows communities to support artists they love.

Earlier this week, Wakshaani mentioned something about small PDFs that got my brain going. As I recall, he said they really don't make much money, so they're not something that makes sense for Catalyst to spend much time or development on. On the other hand, I know there's a ton of stuff that I would like to see that makes more sense as small PDFs - like a dummies guide to rigging with explanations of each roll you would make and a couple of drones or some more options for RCCs and VCRs. I get the feeling others in the Shadowrun community would agree with that desire.

So - how do you make money on small PDFs? That's not a new question and it's something that one of my favorite RPG companies dealt with. Evil Hat had always heard demand for short Fate books that were either worlds or small rules expansions, but whenever they put something out, it never recouped their investment. Then Patreon came about and, after the success of their Fate Kickstarter, they started a campaign to make Worlds for Fate and it's been wildly successful - they've put out eleven worlds in the last year, all of them paid for in full.

That being said, do you think there's appetite for such a thing in the Shadowrun community? Would people pledge 5 bucks a month for high-quality, monthly small works of Shadowrun?

I figure Catalyst's biggest problem with doing this would be their lack of credibility for high-quality work. But it could also be an avenue for them to take back a lot of ground that they have lost. Not that this post is going to do anything, but I wondered about the appetite for it.

As for this, I'd kickstart things (especially if that helped improve the editing problems, they really are horrible).  However if Wakshanni was looking to do some kind of licensed work and needed money to pay CGL for the licensing on it or something like that, I'd Patreon the hell out of that.  Or if other Free Lancers were to start writing things on their own that they licensed through CGL or some such I would get behind that.  However, CGL charges a premium for their product.  I've paid that fee for every 5E product released and there has not been a single one that was released without content errors let alone the numerous typographical errors.  I don't think it's a wise investment for me to buy a subscription to getting a small amount of content that I'm going to have to pay a premium to get any actual use out of.

I'm pretty firmly in Duellist_D's camp on this one.

[Senko]

Is there a legal reason they couldn't just use kickstarter? That is if catalyst raises X (estimated production cost) they will produce a book of life modules (different regions, extra modules for mage/riggers/samurai/etc careers) or a book on different countries (economies, major powers, attitude towards magic) with various little bonuses for different pledge amounts such as if you pledge the normal cost of a PDF you get a copy in return. It'd also server to indicate customer interest e.g. they know before producing it they'll have enough to break even at a minimum and maybe make a nice profit but if not enough is interested to meet the production costs they simply don't make it with no loss to anyone.

[MijRai]

Yeah, I wouldn't fork over a dime.  My addiction to Shadowrun has gotten me to buy most of the books, but the quality control has almost made me drop the system.  I honestly don't trust them to get things up to snuff.  I love the fluff for the most part, the authors are great...  But even with the recent improvements, there's too many flaws. 

[ScytheKnight]

If we're talking about PDFs... one thing that could be useful is a well tabulated pure crunch book, no fluff, no explanations, just 100% pure roll listings and tables.

sure it would be boring to read and quite dense... but the idea being that it's the go-to document for any roll or item without having to wade through pages of fluff and explanation. You want to know how something works and what it can and can't do? Read the book it came in. If you just need to know what to roll or what the stats are? Look no further.

[BetaCAV]

Probably not.

But I'd almost certainly kickstart a hardcopy omnibus.

[Sterling]

Kickstarter yes, but No Way In Hell to Patreon.

I've subscribed to and subsequently cancelled three different Patreons connected to Shadowrun (podcasts in each case) and found that the beneficiaries have significantly reduced their output once the Patreon is up and running, meaning that I was effectively paying for nothing.  At least with Kickstarter it is on a per-project basis.

[Raven2049]

Kickstarter yes, but No Way In Hell to Patreon.

I've subscribed to and subsequently cancelled three different Patreons connected to Shadowrun (podcasts in each case) and found that the beneficiaries have significantly reduced their output once the Patreon is up and running, meaning that I was effectively paying for nothing.  At least with Kickstarter it is on a per-project basis.

agreed. a monthly subscription that we dont know what or when were getting? not a chance. a kickstarter one time pledge with deadlines, outlines, multiple books, and community oversight? yes

[CitizenJoe]

I read some advice from a Youtuber that went Patreon.  He suggests at least 100k subscribers before you consider it.  Then make it an event to get lots to sign up at the beginning.  Low enrollment is just sad and doesn't encourage more enrollment.

[Whiskeyjack]

Is there a legal reason they couldn't just use kickstarter?

Kickstarter and Patreon do different things and are designed to work over different time periods.

Kickstarter is basically being a venture capitalist, where your contribution is up-front, with the catch that if the project is canceled or doesn't meet its base cost, you're refunded. Patreon is like paying an ongoing subscription fee, with no guarantee as to end result of content produced.

[Fabe]

AlsoI think the difference between kickstarter and patreon is with kickstarter you're helping pay for a project while with patreon you're giving money to someone so they can go doing something and not have to work.

  Examples

  Kickstarter: I want to make a feature length Shadowrun fan movie.  I already made a 20 minute short but with X dollars I can make it into a hour and a half.

 Parteon: I'm making a free web based shadowrun fan comic but don't really have time to work on it due to my job. If I can get x dollars per month to pay  for rent and other living costs I can quit my job and work on the comic full time.

[falar]

Oof, I should have put more details from how Evil Hat did their Patreon. The Patreon model I was thinking was not the flat monthly fee for maybe you get something model. That's a crappy model and only works for some stuff.

I was talking about the more Pledge-per-Item level. So, how the Fate World's Patreon works is that you pledge X$ for each product that they produce (to a maximum of one product a month). On months where you don't get anything, you don't pay anything. This provides a super simple way of budgeting for the producer. If I have 500 people who have pledged 5 dollars an item, 100 people who have pledged 10 dollars an item and 10 people who pledged 25 dollars an item, I have a budget of 3750 bucks to produce a splat once a month.

Basically, think of it less like a monthly subscription and more like a standing pre-order. You're saying that, "Hey, Catalyst, until I cancel this, if you make something, I'm going to pay this amount of money up-front for it." Since they know the funds are there, it gives them much more business freedom. Also, it has immediate reactions - if you put out crap, people cancel their patronage and you're back to standard business models - eg, wasting resources on PDFs.

[adzling]

Frankly I would be happy to do a kick-starter for a new line editor for SR5e.