[Jeeves]

I agree with you, Brackhaus. I guess I didn't emphasize that information enough in my post.

[JanessaVR]

Just a point of contention, JanessaVR; not all Infected are serial killers. Several of the players behind infected rights are specifically mentioned in the fiction as doing everything they can to not give in to their inner monster, so to speak.

Ghouls that have agreements with morgues, Vampires that only drink the blood of willing victims (hello, True Blood), and so on. This doesn't apply to all of the infected, by far, but generalizing them all as "serial killers who EAT people" is patently untrue a little naive, and maybe a little ironic as that's exactly what the Infected are on the receiving end of in-setting.

Here's an excerpt from the recent novel Crimson:


“These past few years...it’s like the hunger has become sharper. We don’t need to eat more, but the craving for flesh has gotten so much more insistent. Mouths salivate easy, and the temptation to go hunting for real human meat is always there, always at the back of your mind or right behind your eyelids when you go to sleep.”
.....
He paused. “I…I want to chew them up. I want to eat them while they’re still alive. I want to feel it, and I want them to feel it.” He turned his eyes on me with more soul than you’d expect from cyber replacements. “Don’t you ever feel like that? Don’t you just want to tear into them, let it drip around and flood over you?”


Even if they try to hold out, the Beast lives within them, constantly pushing - it'll win eventually.  A magical virus is compelling them to be serial killers.

[Malevolence]

Not to mention, Shadowrunning can be a perfect cover for being an infected. Typically, break-ins (Infiltrations) are done at night when there is less collateral presence and thus (frequently) less security presence. And casualties are a fat of life - many Shadowrunners are mass murderers (not serial killers) anyway, and so whether you put a bullet in their brainpan or drain them to death is mostly a matter of expediency. Ideally, you would avoid unnecessary killing (brings less heat), but if you can't risk leaving behind a witness, drain to 1 essence then kill via another means - so far as I know, there is now way to determine the peri-mortem essence rating of a corpse. And if flesh is your thing, you just have to make it hard to notice that pieces of an already dead foe will be missed - fire or chunky salsa-fied works well here.


Point being, if you decide that killing is the way to go to feed your unique dietary requirements, Shadowrunning could provide a more ethical purpose for such activities, or at least a more profitable one. And certainly a less conspicuous one.

[JanessaVR]

Not to mention, Shadowrunning can be a perfect cover for being an infected. Typically, break-ins (Infiltrations) are done at night when there is less collateral presence and thus (frequently) less security presence. And casualties are a fat of life - many Shadowrunners are mass murderers (not serial killers) anyway, and so whether you put a bullet in their brainpan or drain them to death is mostly a matter of expediency. Ideally, you would avoid unnecessary killing (brings less heat), but if you can't risk leaving behind a witness, drain to 1 essence then kill via another means - so far as I know, there is now way to determine the peri-mortem essence rating of a corpse. And if flesh is your thing, you just have to make it hard to notice that pieces of an already dead foe will be missed - fire or chunky salsa-fied works well here.

Point being, if you decide that killing is the way to go to feed your unique dietary requirements, Shadowrunning could provide a more ethical purpose for such activities, or at least a more profitable one. And certainly a less conspicuous one.

I (and my group) abandoned traditional Shadowrunning years ago. Honestly, there's more than enough excitement in the Sixth World without having to play an amoral psycho who's only morals are "I shoot people in the face for money, and I don't care who." The recent novelette "DocWagon 19" by Jennifer Brozek was a perfect example of this. Such "alternative campaigns" have far more appeal for me these days. If you're in search of excitement in the Sixth World, there's no shortage of ways to get it legally. A DocWagon HTR team, monster hunters, bounty hunters, escort duty / assisting the Draco Foundation or the Atlantean Foundation on digs in dangerous parts of the world (Tomb Raider, anyone)?

As for more "traditional" Shadowrun campaigns, I didn't mind basic industrial espionage/sabotage, as long as the damage was strictly property. Corp A hires you to spy on / trash the warehouse of Corp B, well, that's no biggie. Corp B will probably hire you to do the same thing to Corp A the next week. Both of them understand that's just how the game is played in the Sixth World. But the idea of wetwork for hire does not appeal to me.

I don't blame people for shooting at Shadowrunners - they typically have good reason to. So I'm all for them shooting at the Infected while they're at it - they have even more reason to.

[MijRai]

Yeah, I feel the need to reiterate this; just because they're Infected, doesn't make them Not People.  It makes them sick, messed up people.  You know what we do with those?  We don't just immediately kill them, we try to treat them (though yes, people do still advocate just euthanizing them all).  There are a number of ways for the Infected to go around without ever having killed a person in their lives (as unlikely as it is).  I could easily see an Infected Rights group offering hard nuyen if people donate their bodies to the kitchen post-mortem.  There's also the whole taboo thing about Infected leading people to idolize them. 

Arguing they're rabid is misrepresenting them because they can have self-control, and there hasn't been enough time/experience to develop a vaccine, cure or alternative food source with less moral problems (Dunkelzhan's Will still has a payment ready for the first group to make a non-metahuman meat that satisfies the ghoul dietary requirements, one developer in Chicago has been working on pigs).  Yes, it's getting harder to resist; that doesn't mean they won't succeed.  People get a whole lot of monkeys off their backs today. 

You're also sort of ignoring the sheer power and utility of the Infected; yeah, they could become monsters.  Has danger ever stopped a Megacorporation or government in the Shadowrun Universe? 

P.S.  Essence Drain is actually addictive and can feel good.  You don't always need to hold down the victim. 

[Herr Brackhaus]

Even if they try to hold out, the Beast lives within them, constantly pushing - it'll win eventually.  A magical virus is compelling them to be serial killers.

To be fair, that is very recent fiction (and one I haven't read yet, unfortunately), but the fiction within the setting has recently indicated that something is ... for lack of a better term... inciting the Infected. Something is going on that causes symptoms to be worse (sunlight allergies are mentioned as being harsher, regeneration increases to the point where the body of an infected rejects even deltaware implants, etc). We don't know what's causing this (yet), but something is going on and it's been going on for a few years at least.

Which, of course, just serves to escalate the whole problem. As others have said, though; some infected are still clinging to metahumanity, and I think you paint a purposefully darker picture than necessary when you say that they'll all end up as serial killers, when we specifically have no grounds to believe that's true. I'd also point out that even though this person you've quoted admits to a hunger, he's conversing with someone and hasn't eaten them (yet, anyway). I'd appreciate it if you didn't quote any more as I haven't gotten around to reading that one yet, as mentioned, but that is hardly the only example of infected in the fiction resisting their new urges.

[JanessaVR]

To be fair, that is very recent fiction (and one I haven't read yet, unfortunately), but the fiction within the setting has recently indicated that something is ... for lack of a better term... inciting the Infected. Something is going on that causes symptoms to be worse (sunlight allergies are mentioned as being harsher, regeneration increases to the point where the body of an infected rejects even deltaware implants, etc). We don't know what's causing this (yet), but something is going on and it's been going on for a few years at least.

Which, of course, just serves to escalate the whole problem. As others have said, though; some infected are still clinging to metahumanity, and I think you paint a purposefully darker picture than necessary when you say that they'll all end up as serial killers, when we specifically have no grounds to believe that's true. I'd also point out that even though this person you've quoted admits to a hunger, he's conversing with someone and hasn't eaten them (yet, anyway). I'd appreciate it if you didn't quote any more as I haven't gotten around to reading that one yet, as mentioned, but that is hardly the only example of infected in the fiction resisting their new urges.

Near as I could tell, this was also the character in question Leaning on the Fourth Wall, telling the reader about the transition from 4th Edition to 5th Edition game mechanics for the Infected. They talk about this in SR4 Storm Front and then again in SR5 Run Faster. Reading between the lines, I was guessing that it was rising magic levels causing the virus to "go into overdrive," as this was all of a sudden (within one year, I believe), and affecting all of the already Infected worldwide. This argues against viral mutation, which ought to just be responsible for creating new and more hungry / sunlight sensitive creatures from newly-Infected victims.

And the reason he hadn't eaten the person he was speaking to was because that person was a vampire - "Red" - the so-called protagonist of the novel.

[PJ]

I like the streamlining of the virus, but would also love to see a Strain II universal template.  I disagree that they should all be monster NPCs though, but that's because I've always loved vampires and the idea of playing them (although IRT Shadowrun, the Ghoul struck me as more iconic).

I like your idea behind Mind of a Monster, but there does not seem to b a mechanical effect to enforce it (although, if only NPC, its a moot point).  Have you thought of replacing it with the Berserker Negative SURGE Quality?  It would be thematically appropriate; apex predators consumed by hunger, having to make the roll under stress to not just lash out and kill/eat that which annoys them.

Another thought (tied in with the fiction in Run Faster), perhaps there could be a mechanical effect (beyond wanton Essence draining) that 'rewards' the ones giving in to their urges?

[MijRai]

Uh...  'So-called' protagonist?  How is Red not the major character of Crimson?

And no, you don't know that the Infected Red was talking to would have just eaten a mundane metahuman they were talking to at that point in time.  Hell, I'd argue that HMHVV-infected metahumans still count as metahumans in regards to Dietary Requirements, and they're totally vulnerable to Essence Drain (when it comes to Strain I). 

[PJ]

Your streamlining gave me an idea about Strain II.  Instead of the one we are familiar with, what if Strain II is a rare form of the virus, between Ghoul and Vampire?  Essentially, someone getting Infected by a Ghoul but not having the 1 point of Essence to make the transition.  Normally, they'd die.  But with it (the virus) being  magical (and wanting to survive) perhaps in some rare cases, a transformation occurs.  The individual would be a cross between Ghoul and Vampire.

[Sendaz]

Hell, I'd argue that HMHVV-infected metahumans still count as metahumans in regards to Dietary Requirements, and they're totally vulnerable to Essence Drain (when it comes to Strain I).

Most ghouls won't eat other ghouls for the same reason they don't eat clowns.

They taste funny.

[Sipowitz]

Just a point of contention, JanessaVR; not all Infected are serial killers. Several of the players behind infected rights are specifically mentioned in the fiction as doing everything they can to not give in to their inner monster, so to speak.

Ghouls that have agreements with morgues, Vampires that only drink the blood of willing victims (hello, True Blood), and so on. This doesn't apply to all of the infected, by far, but generalizing them all as "serial killers who EAT people" is patently untrue a little naive, and maybe a little ironic as that's exactly what the Infected are on the receiving end of in-setting.

Um....
Not to be a jerk, but I think some of you are over simplifying or maybe under-importancing the horrificness of the virus(es).
This isn't a bad case of chicken pox or someone addicted to cocaine.

[MijRai]

I'm not trying to make the negatives sound less painful, myself; all I'm trying to get across is there is a stable presence of Infected who aren't going along with their urges, who don't hurt people (who don't volunteer for it, at any rate), who fight for their rights as sapient beings with an affliction/addiction they would like to see cured (or at least treated).  That is inarguable by the books/history of Shadowrun. 

I'm all about the horrific nature of the virus, of what it does to metahumans on either side of the Infected situation.  Those people who fight it give a bright spot that only makes the depraved/fallen even worse in comparison, and the feral are easily a source of both pity and disgust. 

[Herr Brackhaus]

What MijRai said.

[Sipowitz]

That is where I think SR itself has let the player-base down.