[Sipowitz]

I don't think there's been any let-down in the case of HMHVV.  Sure, they don't grab you by the hair and rub your nose in 'THEY MUST EAT HUMANS TO LIVE' as much as some people want.  That shouldn't be necessary.  We're all adults (or old enough to comprehend), we can read the dietary requirement and Essence Drain/Loss and figure what they need to survive, especially when it is pointed out.  Most of us also know chewing on your neighbor is generally bad, mkay? 

Issue #3

Also, what about the peculiarities of the individual Infected?  Sure any part of the human works for the Infected, but "Hell I got tastes and refinements just like you prey animals er non infected. Ima Psoas man myself."

[JanessaVR]

That does still leave the Shedim in the 'doesn't eat people' category.

Oh, yes, how terribly remiss of me - they're in the "wants to kill everyone" category.

No, we think they are dangerous sufferers of a disease which has severe mental and physical impairments. What if they suddenly found a cure for HMHVV, or a type of vat grown meat product that can be eaten by and sustain the infected without needing to feed on metahumans (alive or dead). Would you still want to kill them all?

Yup.  Their minds have been twisted into serial killers and can't be trusted not to go hunting humans.  Chuck all of them into a big bonfire and end the threat.

Think back about how people with AIDS were treated back in the 80s and 90s and how those with mental disorders have been treated throughout history. The more you create an 'us vs them' dialog, the more you gear up for a war. I'd be willing to bet that most of the infected rights folks aren't advocating for them to be everywhere, just not to to be treated as animals rather then the sapient beings they are (outside of the ferals, who basically are animals at this point). Besides, I'm pretty sure it's be easier to find a cure or food substitute then to kill them all. Being a magical virus that can cross species mutate it'll probably be neigh-impossible to completely eliminate from the world.

And as I said in my first post in this thread (did you read it?), that's a bad comparison.  AIDS patients don't kill and eat people - if they did, discrimination against them would be fully justified.  If HIV had the magical properties of HMHVV, it would be an entirely different issue.  But it doesn't, so comparing HMHVV to HIV doesn't really work.

[Sipowitz]

But the Infected Rights crowd probably think they're misunderstood, cute, cuddly little bunnies who just need a hug (right before getting eaten, with a terribly shocked expression on their face)..

No, we think they are dangerous sufferers of a disease which has severe mental and physical impairments. What if they suddenly found a cure for HMHVV, or a type of vat grown meat product that can be eaten by and sustain the infected without needing to feed on metahumans (alive or dead). Would you still want to kill them all?

Think back about how people with AIDS were treated back in the 80s and 90s and how those with mental disorders have been treated throughout history. The more you create an 'us vs them' dialog, the more you gear up for a war. I'd be willing to bet that most of the infected rights folks aren't advocating for them to be everywhere, just not to to be treated as animals rather then the sapient beings they are (outside of the ferals, who basically are animals at this point). Besides, I'm pretty sure it's be easier to find a cure or food substitute then to kill them all. Being a magical virus that can cross species mutate it'll probably be neigh-impossible to completely eliminate from the world.

Yes I would still want to kill them all.  Humans do not need to eat meat  to survive, yet we do.  They can create the Best Meat^tm doesn't mean they will eat it.  Are you going to force them to only eat Best Meat^tm?

Personally I think Shadowrun, as time has gone on, has lost it's edge.   

*bonus points if someone knows the best meat reference.

[Reaver]

Admittedly, I enjoyed SR a whole lot more before Twilight got made into movies......

How something (a series of novels) that is used a substitute toilet paper got made into 4 movies is beyond me....

[Sendaz]

How something (a series of novels) that is used a substitute toilet paper got made into 4 movies is beyond me....

Soooo....... this might not be a good time to mention they made an additional seven short films set in the Twilight universe?

[JanessaVR]

Soooo....... this might not be a good time to mention they made an additional seven short films set in the Twilight universe?

This link may provide some therapy.

[Moonshine Fox]

How something (a series of novels) that is used a substitute toilet paper got made into 4 movies is beyond me....

Because tweens are too dumb not to love abusive relationship crap? At least we can take solace that the SR vampires burn in the sun rather then sparkle.

[Reaver]

How something (a series of novels) that is used a substitute toilet paper got made into 4 movies is beyond me....

Soooo....... this might not be a good time to mention they made an additional seven short films set in the Twilight universe?

Stop the World. I want off. Now.

[MijRai]

I've always considered Twilight to be propaganda, myself.  Any modern setting with vampires, I automatically assume there is some form of Twilight or create an equivalent myself, and the entire origin of it is less-than-noble vampires using it to beguile people/make them easier to target (and don't just say tweens, I've seen far too many mothers loving those books too). 

By the way Reaver, comparing those groups and Infected Rights is flat-out ridiculous.  We've got conspiracies with no evidence as compared to sapient, intelligent Infected who really aren't happy with the disease they've contracted wanting to not kill people but still live. 

I've also done my share of hunting and butchering; my main thought was that the parts we humans throw out are likely edible to a ghoul, since flesh as a term can apply to all soft parts of the body, to include organs, fat and muscle.  They also have an increased Body as part of their 'eaters of raw flesh' gig, so I'd imagine the stuff that is toxic to metahumans is less so to ghouls. 

Janessa, I know you have me on Ignore for some reason most likely related to the fact that I don't pander to your biased ideas.  Regardless, I'll address your arguments for other people to see. 
One; we trust a number of criminals and mentally ill people out of prisons and hospitals after their release; claiming you can never trust any Infected is silly.  Especially when they are still metahumans.  Yes, some of them will lose control, or just don't care to keep control.  Trying to exterminate them all when it is a fraction that do wrong is pretty messed up. 
Two; comparing Insect Spirits, Shedim and Horrors to the Infected is just as preposterous as comparing HIV to HMHVV, if you want to make that argument.  The first three aren't metahumans at all, and are generally alien to our understanding except for their desire to mess with metahumanity in some way; Insect Spirits use us as hosts, Shedim have a hatred for all things living and the Horrors apparently feed on negative emotions and sensations or something (I've never actually played Earthdawn, I may be a bit off on the last one).  Infected are metahumans who are biologically dependent on eating other metahumans in some way, shape or form.  They don't get much of a choice there. 
Three; no-one at any point here has said the Infected Rights people are going 'oh, they just misunderstood and victimized!'  Some of them may be idiots like that, sure; I expect those ones die pretty quickly.  Look at Thomas McAllister.  He had a sister who got Infected.  His response?  Study the disease and try to find a cure, as well as treat and help the Infected survive.  Sure, in his case his sister couldn't maintain her control and he put her down in the end.  Keep in mind she'd been Infected for decades at that point. 

And Sipowitz, if some form of meat/blood/Essence substitute is created for the Infected...  Yes, you make them eat that (unless there's volunteers for giving them the 'good stuff,' I suppose).  Even if it is sub-par compared to the real deal, if they start going for fresh meat that's justification for actually putting them down.  If you have the option between 'eat this stuff nobody got hurt to make' and 'go kill and eat people' and choose the latter one, you deserve what you get.  When the decision is either 'I starve to death' or 'I eat someone' there's a nice moral gray area. 

[Herr Brackhaus]

I like that this thread has essentially turned into a mirror into the Shadowrun universe debate of infected rights. Some posters want to kill them all, others align with the "they are sentient and as such are worthy of protections".

In short, this whole thread is a good example of why Infected rights are a thing in the Shadowrun world...

[MijRai]

It is sort of amusing. 

Like I said earlier though, I'm not personally arguing for or against Infected Rights in-game (that varies from character to character).  I'm saying out-of-character 'they should all go to the furnace' for the reasons given is an invalid viewpoint when the books explicitly show how it is looked at from a few perspectives.  It is accurate from some angles, sure.  But not all (or most) of them by any means. 

[Moonshine Fox]

I like that this thread has essentially turned into a mirror into the Shadowrun universe debate of infected rights. Some posters want to kill them all, others align with the "they are sentient and as such are worthy of protections".

In short, this whole thread is a good example of why Infected rights are a thing in the Shadowrun world...

It has been an interesting read. I'll admit it's gotten me a bit riled at times like real-world debates of this nature do.

[Reaver]

@MijRai

Actually, I can compare infected rights groups to those other batshit associations, for the simple reason that they are batshit crazy.... just like infected rights advocates

And, I would argue that the infected are not even 'human' anymore, the physiological changes the disease brings about are extensive.
Also, in the case of Ghouls, we are talking a disease with a very high vector of transfer! (A single scratch to infect you? Yea.... you're staying 3 meters away at ALL times!)



And as for Twilight.... its just a sign of the times... I'm old. My generation's vampires are the Anne Rice vampires. You know, centuries old killing machines who look on people as pets and playthings. Not emo crybabies coated in 10 pounds of glitter when hit by a ray sunshine.

Since thise books and vids, there has been a steady stream of "I'm a vampire. But I am not Baad... I'm just all angsty and brooding. With shares in a glitter company" type of characters..  (with some people so glossing over the fact that they consume SOULS, you would swear they were vegans!)


Said it once
Said it twice
Will say it again, "fire cures HMHVV. Apply to source of infection liberally. Keep applying fire until fine white ash is present."

[MijRai]

I have to disagree with you, then.  Especially since like I said, those groups have no evidence, while a ghoul comedian can stand up and go, "*cough*  You know, having to eat people to live sucks.  Have you noticed how much soy you all eat?  You taste like a shitty soyburger even Stuffer Shack wouldn't sell!"  Or, actually say 'this sucks, I've never killed a person or Infected someone in my life, etc. etc.'  How is it insane to not want people to kill your Infected family member while scientists search for a cure?  How is it insane to not want people chasing you with UV lights and shotguns?  How is it insane to realize that could have happened to you, and those people at least deserve the right to have a voice that isn't batshit crazy (like Fear the Dark)?

I'd definitely argue they are metahuman; they have the same basic form, sapience (excepting ferals, the joys of brain-damage), etc.  They still have families, free will, a chance for a (real) cure or alternative source of sustenance.  I'm not saying how people should treat them besides bounties (internment camps to quarantine them seems like a good option if a government/corporation doesn't start culling them; once you're infectious and dangerous, keeping you alive doesn't mean letting you go around with no restrictions or monitoring).  Having those bits of humanity in them makes even the 'lost' ones a morally gray area. 

Oh, I despise Twilight to an immense degree.  I couldn't even get through half of the first book when I tried, and I finished the Sword of Truth series!  My taste towards vampires is more along the lines of Lestat, Dracula and Co. (World of Darkness is a little iffy for me, but that's generally due to players, not the game itself).  Even have a first edition Interview with a Vampire on my bookshelf.  That said, I like humanizing them to some degree; making them closer to human can sometimes make the horror even more, well, horrific.  A tortured conscience is more interesting than a mustache-twirling villain, usually.  Knowing that monstrous creature used to shop at the same grocery store as you do and donated to charity before they lost their minds is better than someone who was Infected and just tossed all morality out the window before investing in a curly-straw augmentation to replace their fangs. 

I do not support the whole 'I'm just angsty and brooding' part people try to play up with vampires while downplaying the negatives either.  Those flaws are really what makes the Infected so interesting to play, in my mind.  If someone tried to skate over or ignore those in my game to an excessive degree, they'd be magically cured somehow!  And all sorts of people would be after their hide to see how it happened.  Though, it'd take a lot to push me that far. 

This whole 'cure with fire' thing makes me think of discussions on the death penalty.  For those who support the whole 'reprogrammed serial killer' thing (which I still maintain isn't valid in all or probably most cases), do you advocate torching all the sociopaths, psychopaths, violent schizophrenics and other violent, mentally ill people?  Is it mandatory death penalty for all murderers?  Should all shadowrunners be shot on sight?  Why are you so vehement against the ones whose lives depend on killing, when there's a whole lot more people who kill others for dumber reasons? 

[Reaver]

it not the act of killing that makes them so..... distasteful.

A murderer can choose to kill, or not. But a Ghoul or a vamp has (generally) no choice, they must consume people to live.

Sure, some can get by on the kindness of strangers, be that donating bodies (which I really don't see happening, at least not in numbers to support a community) or people volunteering to have part of their soul consumed due to their fucked up romantic mental imagery.

A Murderer is not infectious. If a murderer scratches you, you don't suddenly grow claws and fangs, lose body hair, go blind, become awakened and then have an almost irresistible urge to eat other people.

HMHVV is the bubonic plague of the 6th world. except instead of growing pusstules and dying, you turn into a monster and eat people.


Don't kid yourself, it's been 50 years since HMHVV was discovered, and they don't have a cure, or a vaccine. Nor (I suspect) will they ever find one, thanks to the disease being awakened. In the almost 20 years since the Big D kicked the mana-hole in the sky, not a single company has found a substitute food for ghouls.... And again I doubt they will, since the prime ingredient seems to sapience and not the food stock. (hence why Whimps are not a valid food source, Whimps are not sapient. Which leaves us with 2 options:

1: Feed Ghouls regular people (be it dead, the terminally ill, condemned convicts, small unwanted children)
2: develop a new sapient species solely as a food source for ghouls.... such as actually growing fully developed clones (that are sapient!!).

Number 2 leads you back into the same moral dilemma, you are STILL killing one sapient person to feed an other.
As for #1, that is what they are doing now! (eating the dead, the terminally ill, SINless, street kids, and anything else they can catch)


Don't confuse an emotional stance for one of practically, I would fully expect a family member to do whatever they could to help an infected loved one.... They have an emotional attachment to the poor infected. But Emotional decisions are NOT rational ones. Without going too much into it, there are numerous cases of family members making ill-rational decisions for family members when an injury or illness is involved. I have had to make such a call (and it is never easy!). But family members often will go to great lengths to save the unsaveable, even if that means someone else has to suffer for their decisions. The 2 best cases that come to mind are in the first case, a child suffered a brain injury and was brain dead (zero brain function) BUT, the family insisted that the child stay hooked up to the life support systems even though there was zero chance of recovery. (It ended when the hospital got a court order to terminate life support, but they also had to have police remove the entire family has they were physically attacking the staff who were court ordered to turn off the machines) The other case was when a family got a court order to STOP cancer treatments for their 11yr old child because it wasn't "traditional native American medicine". Sadly the girl died 6 months later from the cancer (that had a 80-90% survival rate WITH chemo treatments).. and ended up before the courts AGAIN as the family sued the hospital for NOT saving their little girl and providing Chemo treatments..... Grief over the suffering of a loved one makes people do strange things.


So yes, Fire. Lots and lots of fire.


Is it the best solution? the most humane solution?

Dunno, but it does stop the infection rates if you reduce the number of carriers. And given the fact that corporations and countries can't even afford to take of actual, uninfected people (hence the HUGE amount of SINless) They definitely don't have the resources (or the Will) to care for, house, and isolate Ghouls....

Which again leads us back to... FIRE!!