[Quatar]

I have to say on the topic of Asamando, I don't understand how that place still exists. They're almost 100% infected, so they can't just "live of hospital waste" or "people dying of natural causes".
Which means they're deliberately raiding neighboring countries for food, or something even worse. Some people mentioned human cattle farms, which sounds horrible.

Why has that place not been turned into a radioactive wasteland by ... anyone really? Or Thor-Shot? Or a couple of Dragons burned it to the ground?

[LordGrizzle]

Saying Asmando is a cultural thing... Well, my cultural thing is to annihilate such cultures because they are a threat to my culture. 
Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Campaigning for infected rights is campaigning for killing your own species.

You have to explain to me how ghouls that live on another continent are a threat to your culture? I am not eager to meddle in the affairs of other countries unless I have a damn good reason. Cause frankly more often than not its none of my damn business or that of my own nation for that matter.

Infected rights do not equal the wish to kill your own species. At best it means you are increasing the risk for members of your species to be eaten but infected will never be an extinction-level threat to metahumanity. And by the way we are also the prey of lions and we haven't eradicated them just because of that. We just build settlements were deadly animals can't get us. Why can't we apply the same principles?

[RowanTheFox]

Yea, I'm not for the whole "kill them all" mentality either. Sounds way too much like Humanis drek-talking to me.

A slippery slope is often slicked with the blood of innocents. That slope especially.

[Reaver]

(OMG, lots of activity for a thread necro!)

People talk a lot about "just eating the dead", but forget that for many cultures, the dead are considered scared. Take the Native America culture where ancestors, elders and their remains are holy. in Today's world, multi BILLION dollar developments are cancelled, or put on hold for years thanks to the discovery of a single human bone. Once that bone is found, the entire site is shut down for months or years as experts are brought in to determine if this is a recent bone or an ancient bone and if its an ancient bone - is this a graveyard? And if it's found to be a graveyard.... That project is pretty much dead. (mass protests, camp-ins, and even terrorist acts have been linked to the Native Americans as they shut down these developments).

Do you REALLY think a culture that elevates their dead and elders to such a degree are EVER going to allow their dead to be shipped off to be butchered and sold to the 'undead monsters'?

In India, people have been killed for disturbing the graves of the dead, and there is even a religious group that eats the flesh of recently diseased whose members have faced (if you call being hacked apart in the street by locals) persecution for their actions. Can you really see them allowing their dead to be hacked apart to feed "monsters"?


Its great that you all are trying to come up with a logical way to help feed the infected. But we are talking people here, are people are not at all logical. We put poisons into our bodies, water and air everyday even though we know it's hurts us. We commit acts against each other, even though we rail against those same acts being done to us. For fucks sake, as a species we can not even come to grips on how we came to be the dominate lifeform on the planet (Creation VS Evolution), We can not come to grips as to how has what rights, and when(West VS East culture values). Nope, logical solutions will not solve this issue, this issue will be solved locally but the cultures that are affected. Which means, while we have "Ghoul rights" protests here in the UCAS, there is probably government sanctioned death squads killing the infected in droves in other countries (like the Death Squads that roamed Latin Americas in the 1910s to 1980s)

The simple fact is, you have a disease that turns people into monsters that have to eat humanity to survive. In essence, you have a disease that turns people into parasites! And that disease can be spread by a simple scratch! (aka Hannabelle) We work pretty tirelessly to destroy parasitic invasions now..... The Infected should be no different.

Now, I can just hear the wailing now... "But, but the Infected are people too!".
No.

They WERE people. Now they are a dangerous parasitic infection. And should be treated accordingly. And like any infection, there are a couple solutions. Isolation, extermination, quarantine, and control are the steps taken today when serious infection rears it head (like the Ebola outbreak).
those that had the infection where isolated from the general population, no contact was allowed between those infected with Ebola those not infected (Quarantine). And those with the Ebola were treated until they either recovered or died. If they died the bodies were burned (Extermination and Control). 

Well, unlike Ebola where we have a treatment, HMHVV has no treatment. There is no clue. There is no medication..... Just the healthy and the Sick, and if care is not taken the Healthy can become the Sick very quickly. So, start those flamethrowers, learn how to mix gasoline and gelatin in glass bottles, and let them all fly!


Is this a horrible action and consequence to the disease? Yes. But then again, sometimes extreme measures have to be taken to save the greater host. We cut off cancerous limbs today in order to save the rest of the person. Cutting the Cancer that is HMHVV out from the rest of the host (humanity) may be the only solution to save the host....

 

[MijRai]

Asamando doesn't actually farm metahumans.  They get their bodies through a few means; any non-Infected who are imprisoned by them for felonies (smugglers, for example), invaders who keep trying to kill them (going to war to Asamando is basically putting you on the dinner plate, and is the primary source of their food) and corporate prisoners traded to them in return for Asamando's mineral wealth once they received Corporate Court recognition.  They don't actually need to go on the offensive, as their mere presence incites people to attack them.  Why go out and be the aggressor when the food comes to you, all angry and with excuses for you to kill them?  There probably are some raids by desperate Asamandans, but those aren't going to be sanctioned, as it hurts their standing/projection of victimhood. 

Besides, you don't just go and nuke a country (or Thor shot it) just because.  The Megacorporations make money there, they don't mind.  Dragons don't have much of a reason to care either; they could even have dragon allies for all we know, since they're a very ecologically-friendly Awakened nation.  Other countries don't really care.  The locals don't have the resources. 

Jack does have a point in that the Infected have to feed on metahuman tissue.  This is something they can't avoid.  Lions and tigers and bears (oh my) can eat other things, Infected need to have one meal a day made out of metahumans. 

And Reaver, the dead can be considered as sacred as can be, but Megacorporations don't care.  And poor people don't care if they get a couple thousand nuyen in cold, hard cash for selling their body after they are dead.  That money could mean the difference between joining your ancestors now or in years to come.  There are some very vehement groups that won't do it, that's a given.  But that doesn't mean no-one will do it. 

The disease doesn't make parasites, it makes predators.  There's a difference.  You can argue the Infected are no different, but they are.  They are still people, even if they are really messed up from the disease they've been Infected with.  The arguments that they should be killed have some merit, this is true.  I admit it.  I've played characters on both sides of the fence in the Infected Rights discussion.  But the denial of their personhood is too far out of line, objectively.  They have sapience.  They can think, they can reason.  They have family.  They have at least some self-control.  They have the rules to make them functional PCs.  All of this combines to show the Infected are thinking beings, and at least they have an excuse for the horrible things they do to people; there's plenty who do just as bad or worse with less cause.

[Dwagonzhan]

I would like to point out that the responses that NPC received were not unlike those here. 
...And that was the point of the character: To provoke debate and let the players choose which side they were going to back in an FDC centered run.

It's so strange to see some people actually getting worked up over this again almost a decade later.

[Reaver]

 

And Reaver, the dead can be considered as sacred as can be, but Megacorporations don't care.  And poor people don't care if they get a couple thousand nuyen in cold, hard cash for selling their body after they are dead.  That money could mean the difference between joining your ancestors now or in years to come.  There are some very vehement groups that won't do it, that's a given.  But that doesn't mean no-one will do it. 

You make a very GRAVE mistake in your assumptions that all people value money more then their cultural heritage.

2 cases for you in the real world, and both are from North America

In May 2015, as part of the negotiations with the native  Lax Kw’alaams band near Prince Rupert BC, Petronas offered them 1.1 BILLION dollars to the band members, paid over 20 years for the use of Lelu Island as a terminal. (there are 270 members of the band, or @185K a year for 20 years!) They voted 97% to REJECT the offer!  (And now, just in the last 2 weeks, the Federal Government has signed off on the deal, meaning Petronas now DOES NOT have to offer them the money, or offer them anything at all beyond the 5% royalty shares to ALL the bands along the affected pipeline route)

The next case, is also from North America and is much, much older. (while I was still in college, so 1996?). Almost the same situation, but in this case it was Alberta and Oil.... Chevron offered to hire only Band members to work the field, including training costs to get the workers the skills needed to operate the oilfield, $100k per band member over 25 years, and 10% of royalties  to the band for dispersment to the members. they rejected it out of hand. A year later the government approved the Oilsands, over rode the Native Bands desire to not have the development, and didn't require Chevron to pay anything extra then the Royalties, nor hire an all band member workforce.


In both cases, the Band members rejected financial security for themselves for their Cultural Heritage.

And these are just 2 examples from Canada that I can personally remember. (a country with less then 0.5% of the world population) So I can see this happening many times over the world, And know for a fact it has happened at least a half dozen times in Africa (because I was at the sites).... But Africa deals with it differently then Canada does. (Those protesters "disappear" in Africa with alarming frequency!)


In short, In Western Culture, the Dollar may rule all, but Western Culture isn't the only culture out there, and may Cultures do not place as much importance on Money as we do.

[Senko]

I have to say on the topic of Asamando, I don't understand how that place still exists. They're almost 100% infected, so they can't just "live of hospital waste" or "people dying of natural causes".
Which means they're deliberately raiding neighboring countries for food, or something even worse. Some people mentioned human cattle farms, which sounds horrible.

Why has that place not been turned into a radioactive wasteland by ... anyone really? Or Thor-Shot? Or a couple of Dragons burned it to the ground?

Its a nice convenient place for corps to dispose of unwanted people.

@Reaver
The thing is that examples can come up for both sides of the fence. Take Japan lots of ancestor worship, local gods, very relgious yet I know for a fact that about a decade an entire village (only had 7 elderly people left) decided to sell all their land to a corporation for chemical storage. Shrines, graveyards and all. Then there's this more recent one https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/21/olympics-media-village-sacred-grave-african-slaves-rio-games sure a part of the community is upset that their dead are being built over but another part just went ahead and did it. More specifically relevant there's the case of Charle's Byrne http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/broughttolife/people/charlesbyrne where the undertaker accepted money to sell his dead body to science against his express wishes.

That's the point of this issue in a world with billions of individuals there are going to be groups on the whole spectrum from considering infected as just people with special dietry requirements through those happily selling their or others bodies to the infected for cash into those who are afraid or upset about them to the death squads sanctioned or otherwise that kill them as dangerous threats.

However not only do you have those who think their sparkly, misunderstood and cool but you have entirely different species who'll have their own take on the matter. Returning to my shifter example I can't be infected by them, not human but I can be fed on (I assume). So I'm prey to them, scary, frightening but they only want to eat me you humans want to lock me up in a cage and hack away at my body to figure out what you can sell for a profit because I'm  "just an animal". Take it a step further and consider the viewpoint of the Bovine shifter who see's humans stuffing their faces with "steak". From their perspective your a dangerous threat indeed.

[Jack_Spade]

You have to explain to me how ghouls that live on another continent are a threat to your culture? I am not eager to meddle in the affairs of other countries unless I have a damn good reason. Cause frankly more often than not its none of my damn business or that of my own nation for that matter.

Infected rights do not equal the wish to kill your own species. At best it means you are increasing the risk for members of your species to be eaten but infected will never be an extinction-level threat to metahumanity. And by the way we are also the prey of lions and we haven't eradicated them just because of that. We just build settlements were deadly animals can't get us. Why can't we apply the same principles?

Why do you assume that my characters live on an other continent? Or that they don't care? Ebola happened in Kongo - where I don't live - but you can bet that I perceived that as a threat and that I certainly would not campaign for people there to leave quarantine zones unchecked. Infected are a global problem and Asamando is affecting people world wide (especially if you are captured by a megacon and sold there to become food).

You don't have to take the lion as an example. Look at the wolf in Germany: It's been gone completely for almost 100 years. Only now it is slowly coming back - and yet farmers shoot them as soon as there are casualties within their herds.

We aren't talking about extinction - yet . We are talking about the threat of an invasive species that feeds on us and is seeking dominance.

The infected are not people - they are aliens. Humanity is their food source which is why they cannot truly be part of humanity. Granting them rights is the first step to becoming their cattle - as the Ghoul nation demonstrates quite succinctly.

We as a society don't deny someone who needs donor transplants the right to live, but we surely don't have enough donors to supply all who need a transplant. Likewise we as a society don't force anyone to be a donor - on the contrary, it is illegal to force someone to do so, despite the fact that this means the ill person likely dies.
Vampires are equivalent to people who need a transplant every month. And if we don't keep them in check they are creating others who also need transplants. Allowing them to grow in number is inviting catastrophe. Feeding them means giving them opportunities to grow in numbers. Not allowing them to feed means they have to die.

[RowanTheFox]

 

And Reaver, the dead can be considered as sacred as can be, but Megacorporations don't care.  And poor people don't care if they get a couple thousand nuyen in cold, hard cash for selling their body after they are dead.  That money could mean the difference between joining your ancestors now or in years to come.  There are some very vehement groups that won't do it, that's a given.  But that doesn't mean no-one will do it. 

You make a very GRAVE mistake in your assumptions that all people value money more then their cultural heritage.

2 cases for you in the real world, and both are from North America

In May 2015, as part of the negotiations with the native  Lax Kw’alaams band near Prince Rupert BC, Petronas offered them 1.1 BILLION dollars to the band members, paid over 20 years for the use of Lelu Island as a terminal. (there are 270 members of the band, or @185K a year for 20 years!) They voted 97% to REJECT the offer!  (And now, just in the last 2 weeks, the Federal Government has signed off on the deal, meaning Petronas now DOES NOT have to offer them the money, or offer them anything at all beyond the 5% royalty shares to ALL the bands along the affected pipeline route)

The next case, is also from North America and is much, much older. (while I was still in college, so 1996?). Almost the same situation, but in this case it was Alberta and Oil.... Chevron offered to hire only Band members to work the field, including training costs to get the workers the skills needed to operate the oilfield, $100k per band member over 25 years, and 10% of royalties  to the band for dispersment to the members. they rejected it out of hand. A year later the government approved the Oilsands, over rode the Native Bands desire to not have the development, and didn't require Chevron to pay anything extra then the Royalties, nor hire an all band member workforce.


In both cases, the Band members rejected financial security for themselves for their Cultural Heritage.

And these are just 2 examples from Canada that I can personally remember. (a country with less then 0.5% of the world population) So I can see this happening many times over the world, And know for a fact it has happened at least a half dozen times in Africa (because I was at the sites).... But Africa deals with it differently then Canada does. (Those protesters "disappear" in Africa with alarming frequency!)


In short, In Western Culture, the Dollar may rule all, but Western Culture isn't the only culture out there, and may Cultures do not place as much importance on Money as we do.

There's also the protest going on in North Dakota as we speak over the building of yet another pipeline through Native American lands (and yet another sacred burial ground. Shock, stun, surprise. *rolls eyes*). Frag, I'm about as white as a person can be, and I'd still probably punch someone in the face for merely suggesting such a thing. The dollar doesn't rule in "western culture", it rules in "greedy asshole culture". My character would turn you into a greasy red smear outright.

I can see the logic on both sides. It's definitely a very complicated problem, with some frightening implications either way, and there is no simple and/or easy solution. If history is any indicator, "kill them all" is NOT the way to go. That has never ended well.

[Reaver]

 

And Reaver, the dead can be considered as sacred as can be, but Megacorporations don't care.  And poor people don't care if they get a couple thousand nuyen in cold, hard cash for selling their body after they are dead.  That money could mean the difference between joining your ancestors now or in years to come.  There are some very vehement groups that won't do it, that's a given.  But that doesn't mean no-one will do it. 

You make a very GRAVE mistake in your assumptions that all people value money more then their cultural heritage.

2 cases for you in the real world, and both are from North America

In May 2015, as part of the negotiations with the native  Lax Kw’alaams band near Prince Rupert BC, Petronas offered them 1.1 BILLION dollars to the band members, paid over 20 years for the use of Lelu Island as a terminal. (there are 270 members of the band, or @185K a year for 20 years!) They voted 97% to REJECT the offer!  (And now, just in the last 2 weeks, the Federal Government has signed off on the deal, meaning Petronas now DOES NOT have to offer them the money, or offer them anything at all beyond the 5% royalty shares to ALL the bands along the affected pipeline route)

The next case, is also from North America and is much, much older. (while I was still in college, so 1996?). Almost the same situation, but in this case it was Alberta and Oil.... Chevron offered to hire only Band members to work the field, including training costs to get the workers the skills needed to operate the oilfield, $100k per band member over 25 years, and 10% of royalties  to the band for dispersment to the members. they rejected it out of hand. A year later the government approved the Oilsands, over rode the Native Bands desire to not have the development, and didn't require Chevron to pay anything extra then the Royalties, nor hire an all band member workforce.


In both cases, the Band members rejected financial security for themselves for their Cultural Heritage.

And these are just 2 examples from Canada that I can personally remember. (a country with less then 0.5% of the world population) So I can see this happening many times over the world, And know for a fact it has happened at least a half dozen times in Africa (because I was at the sites).... But Africa deals with it differently then Canada does. (Those protesters "disappear" in Africa with alarming frequency!)


In short, In Western Culture, the Dollar may rule all, but Western Culture isn't the only culture out there, and may Cultures do not place as much importance on Money as we do.

There's also the protest going on in North Dakota as we speak over the building of yet another pipeline through Native American lands (and yet another sacred burial ground. Shock, stun, surprise. *rolls eyes*). Frag, I'm about as white as a person can be, and I'd still probably punch someone in the face for merely suggesting such a thing. The dollar doesn't rule in "western culture", it rules in "greedy asshole culture". My character would turn you into a greasy red smear outright.

I can see the logic on both sides. It's definitely a very complicated problem, with some frightening implications either way, and there is no simple and/or easy solution. If history is any indicator, "kill them all" is NOT the way to go. That has never ended well.

I try to NOT follow what is happening in the US. (which is next to impossible considering I live North of you.... and you guys own the airwaves )

It's just a basket full of crazy. And stupid, but mostly crazy.

Still waiting for a good explaination how the 2 most HATED people of their political parties are now up for the Top Job.... Either you get a blow-hard, or you get a Lair. (you decide which is which )


But, that's OK.... At least you don't have a male Queen of Feminism running your country like I do.... 

[Jack_Spade]

I can see the logic on both sides. It's definitely a very complicated problem, with some frightening implications either way, and there is no simple and/or easy solution. If history is any indicator, "kill them all" is NOT the way to go. That has never ended well.

Actually, it has - at least for those who did the killing.
The whole of human history is plastered with cultures being wiped out by more advanced cultures, animal species going extinct that were threats or resource concurrents and most recently, diseases being eradicated.

 

[LordGrizzle]

Why do you assume that my characters live on an other continent? Or that they don't care? Ebola happened in Kongo - where I don't live - but you can bet that I perceived that as a threat and that I certainly would not campaign for people there to leave quarantine zones unchecked. Infected are a global problem and Asamando is affecting people world wide (especially if you are captured by a megacon and sold there to become food).

Because we are arguing from a western world perspective.

You don't have to take the lion as an example. Look at the wolf in Germany: It's been gone completely for almost 100 years. Only now it is slowly coming back - and yet farmers shoot them as soon as there are casualties within their herds.

As soon as there are casualties. That's exactly what I have been saying about the infected. The same laws should still apply to them. IF they commit murder, THEN they will get prosecuted. If they stick to legal means to feed themselves you can leave them alone. Same way as in your example the farmers also don't go into the forest with torches and guns (because pitchforks are just too retro) and exterminate wolves for NO... GOOD... REASON. Even if they COULD become a danger later. At least I'd like to believe that most people in our modern world don't do that anymore.

The infected are not people - they are aliens. Humanity is their food source which is why they cannot truly be part of humanity.

Aliens are people too. As long as they possess sentience they are people. Like Spirits and AIs and uplifted animals (not strictly an example from Shadowrun AFAIK but you get the point)...

The only question is, can you come to an agreement with them so that both sides don't threaten each other. This makes infected a lot different from Shedim, Insect Spirits, Horrors, Unknown Spirits,... because those creatures can't be reasoned with, but an infected can. Even feral ghouls can be lead to some degree by the non-ferals.

Granting them rights is the first step to becoming their cattle - as the Ghoul nation demonstrates quite succinctly.

If I had the choice between becoming a murderer and cattle, I would choose to be cattle. Luckily, those aren't the only two choices with infected because a middle-ground is absolutely possible.

[RowanTheFox]

 

And Reaver, the dead can be considered as sacred as can be, but Megacorporations don't care.  And poor people don't care if they get a couple thousand nuyen in cold, hard cash for selling their body after they are dead.  That money could mean the difference between joining your ancestors now or in years to come.  There are some very vehement groups that won't do it, that's a given.  But that doesn't mean no-one will do it. 

You make a very GRAVE mistake in your assumptions that all people value money more then their cultural heritage.

2 cases for you in the real world, and both are from North America

In May 2015, as part of the negotiations with the native  Lax Kw’alaams band near Prince Rupert BC, Petronas offered them 1.1 BILLION dollars to the band members, paid over 20 years for the use of Lelu Island as a terminal. (there are 270 members of the band, or @185K a year for 20 years!) They voted 97% to REJECT the offer!  (And now, just in the last 2 weeks, the Federal Government has signed off on the deal, meaning Petronas now DOES NOT have to offer them the money, or offer them anything at all beyond the 5% royalty shares to ALL the bands along the affected pipeline route)

The next case, is also from North America and is much, much older. (while I was still in college, so 1996?). Almost the same situation, but in this case it was Alberta and Oil.... Chevron offered to hire only Band members to work the field, including training costs to get the workers the skills needed to operate the oilfield, $100k per band member over 25 years, and 10% of royalties  to the band for dispersment to the members. they rejected it out of hand. A year later the government approved the Oilsands, over rode the Native Bands desire to not have the development, and didn't require Chevron to pay anything extra then the Royalties, nor hire an all band member workforce.


In both cases, the Band members rejected financial security for themselves for their Cultural Heritage.

And these are just 2 examples from Canada that I can personally remember. (a country with less then 0.5% of the world population) So I can see this happening many times over the world, And know for a fact it has happened at least a half dozen times in Africa (because I was at the sites).... But Africa deals with it differently then Canada does. (Those protesters "disappear" in Africa with alarming frequency!)


In short, In Western Culture, the Dollar may rule all, but Western Culture isn't the only culture out there, and may Cultures do not place as much importance on Money as we do.

There's also the protest going on in North Dakota as we speak over the building of yet another pipeline through Native American lands (and yet another sacred burial ground. Shock, stun, surprise. *rolls eyes*). Frag, I'm about as white as a person can be, and I'd still probably punch someone in the face for merely suggesting such a thing. The dollar doesn't rule in "western culture", it rules in "greedy asshole culture". My character would turn you into a greasy red smear outright.

I can see the logic on both sides. It's definitely a very complicated problem, with some frightening implications either way, and there is no simple and/or easy solution. If history is any indicator, "kill them all" is NOT the way to go. That has never ended well.

I try to NOT follow what is happening in the US. (which is next to impossible considering I live North of you.... and you guys own the airwaves )

It's just a basket full of crazy. And stupid, but mostly crazy.

Still waiting for a good explaination how the 2 most HATED people of their political parties are now up for the Top Job.... Either you get a blow-hard, or you get a Lair. (you decide which is which )


But, that's OK.... At least you don't have a male Queen of Feminism running your country like I do....

I don't have a good explanation for that one because I can't comprehend it either. I may be a complete loon myself, but even I can't wrap my head around that particular brand of crazy. My own conscience simply won't allow me to vote for any of the candidates, even the third party ones (Help us, Bernie! You're our only hope! Come back!). I don't even get mad anymore when people tell me it's an act of surrender to not vote because...well, it is. There's no shame in walking away from a lost cause, and I have reached "get drek-faced drunk and konk out on a pile of thermite" levels of donotgiveafragitis.

Funny, I'd much rather live in Canada than here, but I'm too damn broke to move across the street, never mind to another country. At least in Canada I could get some respectable healthcare, even if I have to wait a while for it. Scandinavia is looking awful nice right about now too.

[Reaver]

Contrary to popular belief, healthcare in Canada isn't free....
What you pay is based off your tax return.

In my case I pay $271/month to maintain the public healthcare system that allows people to die waiting for treatment of serious diseases....

And if you leave the country to get treatment, the Feds charge you with tax evasion!

(Lost 3 family members to cancer waiting lists, and spent tens of thousands of dollars fighting the tax evasion charges when I went to the states to get my liver spurr treated because I couldn't wait the 16 weeks here in BC)