[RowanTheFox]

For that matter, how long is the pregnacy cycle? 9 months like humans? 16 weeks like orks? Is it a single birth or a pair or an entire litter???

Is there a place where the reproductive cycles of the various metatypes are listed?

The only one that has been noted as being different then humans are Orks.

Orks reach maturity by age 13, their reproductive cycle is 16 weeks long, and they give birth to litters of 4 to 8 (down from 12 in 1e).

6WA has a blurb on them, as well as several other books. (But to my knowledge not yet in 5e)

So you can see my concern, IF they reproduce as fast as Orks, in a single year, a mated couple of infected could have as many 24 offspring! That's a lot of essence/flesh to keep that family going!

<but, there has not been much stated on if they can reproduce since the change to 5e. And with the noted change to infected in Storm Front, I am waiting to see if it gets any mention in future books.... but I doubt it will.>

Sadly, I am not sure what books novocrane is quoting from, as he didn't list them.

Well, that sounds like a whole lot of nope. I was asking because I remember seeing somewhere at some point that elves have a longer gestation period than humans, but I can't remember where I saw it or if there's any truth to it. That also makes me wonder if Trolls have a similar shortened gestation period since they also mature far more quickly than humans, dwarfs, of elves.

My feelings on the matter are simple. They are sick and suffering horribly, sane or not, and there is no treatment or cure. Put the poor bastards out of their misery. I see it as being similar to euthanasia for a terminal cancer patient, the difference if that an Infected will likely take out or infect a bunch of other people before they die.

[Reaver]

lets see:

People. noun, plural peoples for 4. 

1. persons indefinitely or collectively; persons in general:
to find it easy to talk to people; What will people think?

2. persons, whether men, women, or children, considered as numerable individuals forming a group:
Twenty people volunteered to help.

3. human beings, as distinguished from animals or other beings.

4. the entire body of persons who constitute a community, tribe, nation, or other group by virtue of a common culture, history, religion, or the like:
the people of Australia; the Jewish people.

5. the persons of any particular group, company, or number (sometimes used in combination):
the people of a parish; educated people; salespeople.

6. the ordinary persons, as distinguished from those who have wealth, rank, influence, etc.:
a man of the people.

7. the subjects, followers, or subordinates of a ruler, leader, employer, etc.:
the king and his people.

#3 for the most part, the other refer back to "persons"

   
Person. noun 


1. a human being, whether an adult or child:
The table seats four persons.

2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

3. an individual human being who likes or prefers something specified (used in combination):
I've never been a cat person.

4.Sociology. an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.

5. Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.

6. the actual self or individual personality of a human being:
You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.


7. the body of a living human being, sometimes including the clothes being worn:
He had no money on his person.

So, strictly speaking:

An AI is not a person nor People.
A Shifter is not a person nor People
A Sasquatch is not a person nor People (but HAVE been granted HUMAN rights by the UN)
A Pixie is not a person nor People
should I go on?


MY argument is that while originally they were people, the disease has had such a radical change to their body they are no longer human.

CRB page 404, ghouls
The disease
causes extreme changes in the victim’s body. He loses
all body hair, and the skin becomes a grayish-tinted, scabrous
hide. The fingers grow elongated, and the nails
harden into sharp claws. The teeth become longer and
sharper, and the eyes film over, leaving featureless white
orbs glaring out of their sockets

That doesn't sound human to me.... Elongated fingers ending in claws, longer sharper teeth, grey scabrous hide (not skin! hide! like a cow!) Featureless white eyes.....  yep. Not human sounding at all!

I don't have the new critter book, so I can't see what they have to say about Vampires in there (and the CRB doesn't denote any physical changes to them... other then they can ONLY eat blood and must consume essence. )






And for the record Senko, I have had you on ignore for over a year. (I just sometimes click the "show post anyway option)

[Senko]

Yes a lot of people put me on ignore because I don't get bored and quite willing to spend years arguing the same points.

As I said those definitions are for OUR world where there are only humans as a sentient being. Find me a definition of "people" from say star trek with multiple races and see if it defines it in terms of humanity where they have examples of other sentient beings or even better a DND type world where they have had multiple races that aren't human or evolved from humans for their entire history and then we'll talk. The shadowrun world has AI's, shifters, naga's, sasquatch's, centaurs all of whom aren't human and have never been human so I imagine a lot of those nations/corporations will have a very different definition of "people" than our online dictionaries.

[Reaver]

Yes a lot of people put me on ignore because I don't get bored and quite willing to spend years arguing the same points.

As I said those definitions are for OUR world where there are only humans as a sentient being. Find me a definition of "people" from say star trek with multiple races and see if it defines it in terms of humanity where they have examples of other sentient beings or even better a DND type world where they have had multiple races that aren't human or evolved from humans for their entire history and then we'll talk. The shadowrun world has AI's, shifters, naga's, sasquatch's, centaurs all of whom aren't human and have never been human so I imagine a lot of those nations/corporations will have a very different definition of "people" than our online dictionaries.

Sure, Find me an official Star trek dictionary that has a definition of "People" in it and I MAY except that. Or, find me a Shadowrun official dictionary and I'll accept that too.
Every time race has come up in Star trek, they always refer to the species (those Vulcans, these Andorians, those Klingons.) they have never used the word "people" when talking about an other race. In fact in many episodes they prattle on about "humanity" and how it's human's greatest gift to the galaxy.... never once to my knowledge do they use Person or People to refer to any other race.... Unless it's used such:

"The Cardassian people will not stand for this insult Sisko, you best be ready for the consiquences of your actions today" <Dukat, season 3, esp 8 I believe?>   In which case he has identified exactly who he is speaking about and falls under article 4 of the definition of People.

But please, show me an episode where they just refer to an other race as simple "people" without using an identifier.(I own the ToS, NG, DS, voyager, and Enterprise on bluray, so I can look it up, if you provide me with a season and Ep number)

Also keep in mind, most TV shows have the language proficiency of a grade 4 student. (so it can be easily understood by the largest possible audience), and they make massive mistakes all the time. There have been several episodes where they try to get technical while talking about power... and ROYALLY fuck it up... They fuck it up so bad, that what they were doing, and what they wanted to do, were exact opposite steps! But that is common when you get someone writing about something they have NO idea about, but want to make it sound like they do....

For example, If you can get your hands on the original Star trek Operations Manual (published in 1973 I believe) that goes into the technical specs of the original constitution class vessel; Look at it's computer core. A 486 33mhz computer was FASTER by several orders of magnitude! And now, my Calculator is more powerful!

*bangs on desk* "Hello Scotty??? No intelligent Life here, beam me up" <And yet my calculator, more power then the NCC-1701 Enterprise can not transport me to the stars....Sad, sad day.> 


You are arguing Street vernacular, VS actual word definition... and THAT is a slippery slope that gets played a lot by uneducated and dysfunctional people every day today. For example:

"You can't talk about Islam like that, that's racist!!"

Note: Islam is not a race, it is an ideology, one can be a follower of Islam and be born to any ethic group on the planet. Thus it is NOT racist..... And yet that is a common argument thrown around every single day on college campuses,  blogs, and newspapers across the world.... 

Again, you're trying to expand the definition of words to suit your personal views. You can do so if you want, but that doesn't make you correct. 

[LordGrizzle]

lets see:

People. noun, plural peoples for 4. 

1. persons indefinitely or collectively; persons in general:
to find it easy to talk to people; What will people think?

2. persons, whether men, women, or children, considered as numerable individuals forming a group:
Twenty people volunteered to help.

3. human beings, as distinguished from animals or other beings.

4. the entire body of persons who constitute a community, tribe, nation, or other group by virtue of a common culture, history, religion, or the like:
the people of Australia; the Jewish people.

5. the persons of any particular group, company, or number (sometimes used in combination):
the people of a parish; educated people; salespeople.

6. the ordinary persons, as distinguished from those who have wealth, rank, influence, etc.:
a man of the people.

7. the subjects, followers, or subordinates of a ruler, leader, employer, etc.:
the king and his people.

#3 for the most part, the other refer back to "persons"

   
Person. noun 


1. a human being, whether an adult or child:
The table seats four persons.

2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

3. an individual human being who likes or prefers something specified (used in combination):
I've never been a cat person.

4.Sociology. an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.

5. Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.

6. the actual self or individual personality of a human being:
You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.


7. the body of a living human being, sometimes including the clothes being worn:
He had no money on his person.

So, strictly speaking:

An AI is not a person nor People.
A Shifter is not a person nor People
A Sasquatch is not a person nor People (but HAVE been granted HUMAN rights by the UN)
A Pixie is not a person nor People
should I go on?


MY argument is that while originally they were people, the disease has had such a radical change to their body they are no longer human.

CRB page 404, ghouls
The disease
causes extreme changes in the victim’s body. He loses
all body hair, and the skin becomes a grayish-tinted, scabrous
hide. The fingers grow elongated, and the nails
harden into sharp claws. The teeth become longer and
sharper, and the eyes film over, leaving featureless white
orbs glaring out of their sockets

That doesn't sound human to me.... Elongated fingers ending in claws, longer sharper teeth, grey scabrous hide (not skin! hide! like a cow!) Featureless white eyes.....  yep. Not human sounding at all!

I don't have the new critter book, so I can't see what they have to say about Vampires in there (and the CRB doesn't denote any physical changes to them... other then they can ONLY eat blood and must consume essence. )






And for the record Senko, I have had you on ignore for over a year. (I just sometimes click the "show post anyway option)

Then I think we need a new word other than person / people to describe the thing I am talking about. The thing only is, all the things that aren't people according to you, I still treat them with the same respect as people. And it is something I deeply believe in real life as well.

If a human, an AI and a Shapeshifter were about to die, and I could save exactly one of them I would choose whoever I have the deepest emotional connection to, not the human by default just because it is the only person in there.

Would you choose the human automatically? You could argue this makes me a horrible member of my species as some others have (Like in a similar debate about hypothetical AI rights in the real world).

[RowanTheFox]

Then I think we need a new word other than person / people to describe the thing I am talking about. The thing only is, all the things that aren't people according to you, I still treat them with the same respect as people. And it is something I deeply believe in real life as well.

If a human, an AI and a Shapeshifter were about to die, and I could save exactly one of them I would choose whoever I have the deepest emotional connection to, not the human by default just because it is the only person in there.

Would you choose the human automatically? You could argue this makes me a horrible member of my species as some others have (Like in a similar debate about hypothetical AI rights in the real world).

I agree with you. One of my characters has a "brother" who is an e-ghost and interacts with the physical world via an anthro drone. She would absolutely save him first. The only exception to that being if her son was in danger as well.

[Reaver]

Lets see....

Between a Human, An AI, and Shifter.... And I could only save one.....

Well that would depend. What is the situation.... Arguably, I could never "save" an AI as it not a corporeal being, and I am not a digital being.

Between the human and the shifter then.
Dunno. which ever one I could get to the quickest given the limited info.

Between a complete stranger (human) and My Bulldog...
The Bulldog.  I care more for it then a complete stranger.

Between the Ex-wife and Bulldog....
hmmmm.... Save the Bulldog while waving goodbye as the Ex-wife dies! (Yes, I hate her THAT much)

Between my Daughter and the Bulldog...
My daughter in a heartbeat. Not even a question.

Between an Infected and a complete stranger.
Please! I AM probably the reason why the infected is in danger!


People form emotional attachments all the time to non human beings (AKA The Crazy Cat Lady!). It's in our nature and we have done so for thousands and thousands of years. Heck we bond with animals so completely we assign human motivations and feelings to them!

But that doesn't mean your housecat is considered a Person. (well, except for the Crazy Cat Lady... but the reason why that is, is right in the descriptor )

See, this is part of the problem, we form an emotional attachment to living things, and transplant our emotional connection into a belief that they are somehow "special". They are not, no matter how much we love them, they are NOT people.

Don't know if you are old enough to remember this, but a dozen year ago or so there was a great big movement to ban Tuna because Dolphins were getting caught in the tuna nets.... "Dolphins are such smart and beautiful animals! We can't let them die!!!" was the general outcry.

All I ask is "Have you actually TRIED dolphin? DAMN tasty!! Especially with some sea salt, lime and chili oil!"  (Not joking. Very tasty and it's a traditional Ghana meal.) 

Note for you animal lovers: When you pass away in bed, your Cat/dog WILL eat you. Every time.
<so that shows you just how much Fluffy loves YOU, huh >

What I do find interesting, is that this is mostly a Frist World phenomenon. Get into the developing world, and the concern for animals, animal well being drops well down. Only the rich have pets, for everyone else, an animal comes in 3 types, A service animal, a Production animal, or a food source.... and in many cases all three! Get down to the 3rd world, and animals basically come in two forms: Protection animals, and food sources... and that protection animal becomes a food source once it can no longer do its job.
They do not form the emotional attachments to animals that you see in the Western World. For example, when someone's dog dies in the western world, they are sad for weeks or even months. In the 3rd world, they are sad for about as long as it takes to prepare that dog for dinner. and once they eaten it, they go get an other dog to fill in for the one that died.

So I guess, only the fortunate have the luxury to form a human-like bond to an animal.....

Food (mmm!) for thought!
 

[Senko]

My point is that the definitions we have are based on a world where we are the only species that is sentient. Dictionary meanings change, evolve or even get dropped entirely as language is a living thing (normally). Right now those definitions say people = human but they say that in a world which has only humans, a few hundred years ago it probably said people = man because as far as the dictionary was concerned there was no need to be politically correct and say human because man was sufficient.

If I were arguing street vernacular vs word definition I would be pointing out it says HUMAN not metahuman which means that it is only HUMANS who count not elves, dwarves, trolls, etc. They may have been human once but aren't any more. You don't call them humans with pointy ears, short humans, humans with a skin condition do you? Yet your extending your definition to cover them because they used to be human or their ancestors where but the dictionary defintion is human only. If you call them an elf you call them not a person and thus not covered by any of the laws governing people. However I'm not, I'm just pointing out that street vernacular or word definition the term in our world is based on an entire history of their only being one intelligent race. That's not the case in shadowrun, there you've had elves, dwarves, shifters, dragons, centaurs, pixies for decades all of whom are not "human" and many of which were never human to begin with it seems to me that in that case the definition of "person" would change as well.

As for the scenario ignore any connections. You have a human you don't know, an AI you don't know and a shifter you don't know. Complete and utter strangers no emotional connection and no way to talk to them as they are in a magical silence field and can't talk to you. In front of you are 3 buttons and a timer. The left button will release you and the human while killing the AI and shifter, the middle one will upload the AI to the net freeing it while releasing you and killing the human and shifter, the right button will release you and the shifter while killing the human and the AI. You have 1 hour to pick a button to press if you press none all 4 of you die. Who do you save?

Lets take another hypothetical scenario in the future nanotech has evolved and can completely rewrite a persons DNA. I use it on your daughter turning her into a feline shifter, a complete and total change. She can only breed with other cats not humans, she has all their abilities and weaknesses, in a low enough mana area she'll be stuck as a cat, she is right down to the DNA a feline shifter only distinguishable from a normal one because she remembers being human. Have I stripped her of her personhood is she now an animal? If that hits too close to home its a random male wage mage in his mid 30's, I inject him with the nanite serum and turn him into a female, teenage, feline shifter is she human?

The point we are making is that this is not an attachment to a non-human thing that is not intelligent it is aknowledging a non-human or previously human being is just as intelligent, just as emotional, just as creative, just as justfied to be considered a person as you are. No dolphin as far as I know is going to create a majestic painting glorying in the majestic tragedy of life, a shifter, AI or infected might.

Finally if nothing else look at it from a survival point of you if you deny us our rights to be "people" because we aren't human what's to stop us appying the same to you? The Tir na og army sends out its most elite fighters and mages to burn you to death along with every other human in your home city because humans are a dangerous threat and hey its not like they're elves (in fact that was the plot of a shadowrun novel).

I used star trek because I was watching the film (I very much doubt there is a star trek dictionary) but insert any other series with multiple species and ask yourself would they really only consider "humans" the one true race and if they do what tends to happen in those series?

Remember we aren't animals the rich are forming a bond with we're an animal with our own views, our own desire and in many cases a profound dislike of metahumanity but we're still people.

[LordGrizzle]

@Reaver
I am a vegetarian so no thank you to Dolphin Meat. I know my dog would probably eat me if I died but that's no reasoning for me to do the same thing. At the end of the day I am the superior being and as such I can make such a decision while the animal is not. Yes I understand that it is a first world problem. But on the other hand I think at some point every person on earth should have first world problems only and we should work on making life better for everyone.

But a least now I understand you a lot more. Your problem with infected is primarily the threat they pose and not just that they aren't humans anymore. Because I would agree that they aren't human. But I also respect all life that isn't human and you draw some form of line. Thank you for entertaining my questions.

Just as a sidenote you could safe an AI if it was bound to one data core or robotic body that's trapped in a burning building. If it has the ability to upload there probably wouldn't be a reason ever to safe it (safe for a digital attack and that would probably be a conflict too fast and complex for a human to ever do anything meaningful if two human+ digital entities went at it with an intent to kill each other)

[Reaver]

well, you partly right.

I found a dictionary from 1792 that is online: https://books.google.ca/books?id=bXsCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PT7&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

It's in PDF form so I can't copy and paste, but this is directly what it says:

People. F. (Peuple, Fr. populous, Lat)
1: A nation; thofe who compofe a community.
shakefp. 2 the vulgar. Walfer 3. the commonalty ; not the princes or nobles
4: perfons of a particular clafs Bacon. 5 Men, or perfons in general. Arbatbnot


and.... that's  as close I can get it, spelling and all.... (I spelled it out EXACTLY as it is, you can use the link to check)

1792 marks the almost the early beginning of what would become to be known as the Victorian Era... An era that saw many cultural changes in the great kingdom of that time (the British Empire)... They were freeing slaves and sending them to their own colony and country (A hell hole we know today as  Sierra Leone).  Capt. George Vancouver maps the west coast of Canada and the united states and claims the Puget sound in the name of the British empire. And racism was at its height....

(so yes, while they considered Blacks to be inferior, they also didn't see them as just animals, as they were beginning to abolish the slave trade into Britain.)

And as we can all see, the language has evolved a bit over the last 200 years.... but the meaning of the word has not changed much.... Except for explicitly listing women, and explicitly noting animals as NOT.








<ANNNND a computer error deleted the next 10 paragraphs I had written out. Posting this as is. Then will retype out what got lost..... Fuckiing computers>

[Reaver]

@Reaver
I am a vegetarian so no thank you to Dolphin Meat. I know my dog would probably eat me if I died but that's no reasoning for me to do the same thing. At the end of the day I am the superior being and as such I can make such a decision while the animal is not. Yes I understand that it is a first world problem. But on the other hand I think at some point every person on earth should have first world problems only and we should work on making life better for everyone.

But a least now I understand you a lot more. Your problem with infected is primarily the threat they pose and not just that they aren't humans anymore. Because I would agree that they aren't human. But I also respect all life that isn't human and you draw some form of line. Thank you for entertaining my questions.

Just as a sidenote you could safe an AI if it was bound to one data core or robotic body that's trapped in a burning building. If it has the ability to upload there probably wouldn't be a reason ever to safe it (safe for a digital attack and that would probably be a conflict too fast and complex for a human to ever do anything meaningful if two human+ digital entities went at it with an intent to kill each other)

Wait....

 Vegetarian? VEGETARIAN?!?!?


You Sir are NOT People!










(Kidding, could care less what you eat. Just don't try to ram your way of life down my throat and I won't do the same.)

[Reaver]

<continuing with the post that the computer fucked up on>

Elves, dwarves, trolls and Orks are Persons and People because The UN, the WHO (no, not the band!), and even the Catholic church says they are (admittedly for the church, only after a mass revolt of the faithful). Also, humans can easily interbreed with them and produce viable offspring. Even though we look nothing alike we are all humans - just a different races of humans. (and not in the social construct way we consider it now...)
That Troll may be big and ugly and have horns, but he's still a human... the way that a Pug and Great Dane are still dogs, even though they look nothing alike.

As to your first little hypothetical:

I free the human. Which is exactly what Psychology says I would do. When all else is equal in a stressful situation, people are most likely to pick the solution that most resembles themselves..... This is an actual Psychology test done 25 years ago where they gathered people from different ethnic backgrounds and placed them is controlled situations. Every time, people chose to "help" those of the same ethnic background as themselves before all others.

As to your second Hypothetical:

Easy. I find you. I capture you. I skin you. Repeatedly. Until your regeneration gives out and your die. and for a shifter that takes a LONG time! I got 8 full pelts off that Tiger Shifter last year before he failed his regeneration roll and died. Easiest 80k ever! Then once you have been deal with, I use nanites to turn her back. If they could turn her to a shifter, they can change her back! Easy-peasy! Next Hypothetical please

I acknowledge freely that anything with Sapience is as smart as me, has the same range of emotions as me, and is just as capable of producing great works of art, science and literature. But that still doesn't make them a Person, or People.  an AI is still a digital construct, it doesn't matter how may electrons it cries, or how smart it is. A shifter is still an animal, no matter how many languages it's learned or poems its written.

Just because something is as smart as human, as wise as human, and as emotive as a human does not make it human, and thus a Person or People.  There are a great many differences between us which you seem to be forgetting... In the books there is a great example of a Wolf Shifter getting confused with our mating habits. He was utterly confused why we would spend hours talking, drinking and eating before having sex. To him it was a simple matter, If the chick was in Estrus, just take her and be done with it.  That right there shows just how different we actually are.  Sure that Shifter is smart and wise.. but its not human, nor does it understand what it means to be human. Simply because, even though it is Sapient, it's STILL a wolf.

It's not me, that denying your "human rights". Its everyone EXCEPT the NAN, Amazonia, Azania, Aztlan and Yakut...And, in the non-UN countries they actively consider you a threat. Such a threat they actually pay ME to come kill you! (Don't worry, I generally don't take wetwork jobs. Unless you betray me, or backstab me.. then the work is VERY wet, and takes DAYS! [Hurrah for Torture rank 8 backed up with Anatomy 6 and Medicine 6 knowledge skills!]) So what's that? 70% of the world population doesn't think you are People either. And of that 70, say 40%(?) actively consider you vermin/threat and pay for your errdaication (better get that shifter policlub geared into overdrive! you have HUGE uphill battle)

I am not worried about the elves getting uppity. Its happened before, (3 times in fact) and they have gotten their Pee-Pee slapped each time. Hence why the Tirs are not doing so great anymore (at least up to 4e.. still waiting for word in 5e)... And besides, There is a crap tonne more human then elves. And despite all this talk of how "powerful" the few immortal elite elves are, There is some SERIOUS mojo and power mostly in human hands... Remember the Ghost Dance? And how the American Indian Shamans blew the tops off 11 mountains along the Ring of Fire 40 years ago AT THE SAME TIME? Something tells me they could do it again.. if they had to. Remember Aztlan/Aztechnology and their Viiculum, blood magic, and Blood Rituals? Enough tech know-how and magical mojo to beat up and Great Dragon! And Really, on a personal level, I have yet to meet anyone outside of Harley that can match me in the magic department (intitation rank 18. Have ALL the meta-magics I can, and if I REALLY need it, I have bonded a force 20 Power focus, and a force 20 Ally spirit)

And honestly I could care less about shifters. In my career as a running spanning 30 years, I have run into exactly 2 shifters. The first was the adept tiger assassin that I skinned 8 times. And the second is a Wolf Shifter who happens to be my telismonger. And the only reason I know he is a shifter is I spend 6 years being blind and relying on Astral Perception and saw his astral form. Other then that, he takes my money and I get my reagents. All's good.

I trust AI as far as I can throw them.. and considering they are a digital construct, I can't throw them!
(I take threats of dropping a space station and releasing toxic viruses on the planet VERY seriously Mr. Sojourner)
But then again, I refuse to use the matrix, so chances of running into an AI are remote, to say the least.

and YES, you are AN animal. A smart animal. An animal with a human range of emotions. But still and animal no matter if you want to acknowledge it or not And I don't really care who you like or dislike....

But a word of advice? Keep your Racism in check while around humans..... It's not a crime to shoot a fox! It's pest control!






 

[Senko]

Which is proving my point. You only consider humans worth protection under the law even though humans are just one part of the law by your own argument the moral thing to ensure the survival of shifters, AI's, sasquatch's anything that wasn't human or can trace its ancestry back to that is to hire as many assasins as it takes to kill you to ensure our own survival. Really the only difference between you and the most racist humanis club member is where you draw the line on what counts as human.

As for that dictionary it also proves my point about the way definitions evolve with time. Like you said it doesn't say "humans" it say's men, in fact it also excludes lords and nobles as their own seperate class distinct from the "people".

[Sendaz]

Between the Ex-wife and Bulldog....
hmmmm.... Save the Bulldog while waving goodbye as the Ex-wife dies! (Yes, I hate her THAT much)

True story.

Some local punks once kidnapped Reaver's Ex and sent him a text message from her phone saying pay up or we cut her into little pieces.

He sent back a message asking for hi res pics of the cutting up.

Then the punks sent another message saying pay up or they give her back.

Sadly before he could get the monies together,  the cops found them and brought her back. 

[Reaver]

Which is proving my point. You only consider humans worth protection under the law even though humans are just one part of the law by your own argument the moral thing to ensure the survival of shifters, AI's, sasquatch's anything that wasn't human or can trace its ancestry back to that is to hire as many assasins as it takes to kill you to ensure our own survival. Really the only difference between you and the most racist humanis club member is where you draw the line on what counts as human.

As for that dictionary it also proves my point about the way definitions evolve with time. Like you said it doesn't say "humans" it say's men, in fact it also excludes lords and nobles as their own seperate class distinct from the "people".

Yes, And we are also talking a 224 year old dictionary that has words spelt MUCH different then we do now.

The point I was bring up about my Daughter's dictionary and the Word Gay better proves my point...
Gay has been slang for homosexual since the mid 1950s... that's what? 60+ years ago??? In 60+ year LGTB(xyz) community can't get a word changed in the dictionary to match the common usage of it?? The LGBT(xyz) Community floods social media, you-tube, and the internet with demands to change bathroom signs, change rooms rules, shower rules and have even come up with 60,0001 and new pronouns for Him/Her!!! YET they forgot to bitch/whine/cry to the dictionary companies?
Shadowrun is ONLY 60 years into the future, yet you expect them to CHANGE the definition of Human and People to match the whim of a bunch of animals that 70% of the world consider throw rugs and 40%(?) of those 70% percent actively PAY for you eradication... Espoecially since many of these species weren't found until the 2040s... that a little stretch of the imagination. Hateto say it, but civilizations don't change the definations of words THAT fast.... But who knows, get a UN resolution stating your Rights and it may happen as an honorific as is the case with sasquatch (who are still not Human. but have Human Rights)

And you are worried about ME??? I have ZERO political power, except for that I can blackmail out of a person (and blackmail only takes you so far).

Best get your piorities straight I don't give a rat's ass if you live or die. (for that matter, I don't give a rat's ass if humans, orks, trolls, elves, dwarves, pixies, sasquatch, 3 eye purple people eaters die!) Right up until you MAKE me care... Which has never ended well for anyone that has

And, do REALLY want to pick a fight? Shifters are 0.003% of the World population, OR LESS. The ENTIRE shifter species in all its forms don't even form a large city.... That is a fight you can not win. Ever. At best, with concerted effort and the extinction of a few species, you are all gone in 2 decades tops. (Hint: Races that number 200k total, don't get to threaten people.... ESPECIALLY animal species with NO rights!) And in your little war, what do you think happens to the support given to you by those other countries hmmm??

You think the NAN is going to happily protect you when you declare war on metahumanity??? (since the NAN is 99.8% metahumans... I'm gonna say "no")

So keep your little fox teeth covered.... or I May end up with a new Fox Skin jacket... (how high IS your body? Do you feel you could you survive 8 to 10 skinings?? I need to know! It makes the difference between a sports jacket, a bomber style jacket, and a longcoat!)

And sorry, no matter how much you whine and cry and gnash your teeth, you are STILL an animal.
Again, I freely admit you have human level intelligence, and human level emotions, and human level wisdom.

But you are also covered in fur (50% of the time), reproduce with animals, give birth to litters appropriate to your species and think more like your original species then you do a human... regardless of what you think. I am truly sorry you can not understand that. Some times in life, you just don't the things you want, no matter how badly you want them...

And no, Life is not fair. Never has been, never will be.  But keep wishing on those rainbows and unicorns!

And BTW, its not ME that think only humans are worth protecting under the law.... Its LAW that says only metahumans are worth protecting under it. Take it up with them, I am not a lawyer, I steal shit for a living! So really you're railing against the LAST person that can help you..... Nor do I have any desire to, as it has no bearing on my life one way or the other. Don't get in my way, and you get to live. Get in my way, and I'll burn you down. Same with any other humans, orks, trolls, elves, dwarves, and poodles (what can I say, I'm an equal opportunity burner!)


In short, you want to Live? Fine, don't care. You want Rights? Fine, don't care again.
But I can't GIVE you those rights. So go ask those that can.
and until they DO give you those Rights, you are not a Person, nor are you People by the strictest definition of the word.

And even then, maybe not. (Like I have pointed out many times, Sasquatch are NOT human, thus not People or Persons  by strict definition.... But they DO have Human Rights under the law.)


But that doesn't change the fact that the infected should be burned out and excised from the population. When you are dealing with Cancer, Sometimes the only thing you can do is cut it out - even if that means the whole limb- in order to save the host. And make no mistake, the infected are a cancer on the earth.