[ZombieAcePilot]

Some interesting points there ZAP. Though I hope a guy with a pool of 8 will know better to to divide up 8 dice into two attacks.

I might do it if I caught someone by surprise. Maybe we're in an elevator and I'm leaning up against the rail all cool like. Two corpsec walk in. Doors slide shut and we begin to ascend. QuickDraw! Two darts later and they could be both twitching on the floor with no initiative left. Go again first next round with any luck and finish the job (if not in the second pass!).

Not something I'd do often... But when the situation is right you go for it. It's similar to having multiple fire modes. I may still shoot semi auto a lot, but that fire selector switch is there when the time is right.

Example time! I love example time.

Our Corp security will be played by the grunts from SR382. Our runner will be the weapons specialist from page SR118.

The runner pops a dose of jazz outside then walks into the elevator right on schedule. the decker ismaking sure that only one elevator is on the ground floor. She arrives just before the guards, who are on their predictable hourly patrol. Our runner waits till the two guards select their floor, than turn in ackward silence to stare at the door. It's go time.

Surprise test! The runner has 4(5) Reflexes + 3 intuition + 6 for ambushing the guards. That's 14 dice to score 3 hits which she does no problem. Our corpsec has 4 reflexes and 3 intuition for a pool of 7. That's two dice short of making the 3 threshold they need, on average. They both are surprised and take -10 to they initiative and are considered unaware of the incoming attack. Initiative gets rolled. Our runner has 8 + 3d6 with the corpsec at 7 + 1d6 - 10. Runner up on 18, or security has 1 and zero respectively.

Pass 1:
Runner on 18 spends a simple action and swaps to burst fire mode on her Ares Crusader II. A second simple action and she quick draws with a pool of 9. She uses a free action to make this into a multiple attack, placing 2 shots on the first target and 1 on the last. She totals up her dice pool getting 5 Agility + 4 Automatics + 1 for wireless non-implanted smartgun for a total of 10. 5 dice each with no defense test is on average 1, almost 2, net hits. That's 8P each which they can resist with Body 4 + armor 12. 16 dice each cuts an average of 5 damage off while the armor converts the damage to stun. Both goons are now taking a -1 to their initiative, meaning our goon with 1 init doesn't get to go this turn. Poor luck chummer.

Pass 2:
Our runner uses a free action to call a shot to the vitals (shot through the back of the head, harsh) and uses a complex action to aimed burst her opposition. That's 6 rounds shot with only 5 recoil compensation (gas vent 2, 2 from STR, and 1 standard). We take our ten dice, subtract 1 for the recoil and 4 for the called shot. 5 dice again gets us a net hit. Or 8P goes up to 11P with our called shot and aimed burst. Our goon reduces the damage to stun and knocks another 5 off it. That means we do 6S, and since we exceeded his physical limit we knock him to the ground with his brand new -3 damage penalty. Shiny!

Round 2. Everyone rolls again with penalties for damage. Runner gets 18, Sec 1 gets 8 and Sec 2 gets 9. Sec 1 is on the ground.

Runner goes first and takes aim on the downed guard as a simple, splits her dice pool with a multiple attack as a free, and finally fires with refreshed recoil compensation. Yipee! 6 dice and 5 dice a piece is. 2 and 1 net hits on average when unopposed. Sec 1 goes unconscious as he takes another bullet in his armored jacket. Sec 2 drops to 8 initiative from the 3 stun he takes.

Sec 2 gets to go finally. His buddy is on the ground, badly hurt. Seeing as how he is a lowly professional rating 2, he has his priorities to consider. He lunges for the gun, trying to subdue the shooter. With a dice pool of 7 reduced to 5 from penalties he doesn't stand a chance.

Pass 2:
Our runner goes again, and decides that since she can't get a clean shot due to wrestling with the guard (a-3 penalty) that instead she'll get down and dirty and clock him with the machine pistol. She rolls a pool of 5 agility + 4 close combat group (in place of clubs) for a total of 9 dice. Our guard can only defend with a dice pool of 5 (7 -2 for wound penalties). The runner makes a net success, almost two. Damage for a pistol used in melee is Str+1S. With her cyber arm that is 6S damage. Reduced by our guards soal he only takes 1S from the attack.

Turn 3:
Pass 1:
Frag this corp scum. Our runner lays into him with a complex action long burst for 6 shots. Her dice pool of 10 drops to 6 (-3 for shooting in melee -1 for recoil) as she blazes away. Our guard has a pool of 0. No defense. Two net hits means 9P modified to stun and reduced by 5 to 4S, which knocks him out. Whew, thank goodness thats over. Too bad about the elevator... it needed more ventilation anyways.

[Marcus]

Example time! I love example time.

As do I!

Pass 1:
Runner on 18 spends a simple action and swaps to burst fire mode on her Ares Crusader II. A second simple action and she quick draws with a pool of 9. She uses a simple action to make this into a multiple attack, placing 2 shots on the first target and 1 on the last. She totals up her dice pool getting 5 Agility + 4 Automatics + 1 for wireless non-implanted smartgun for a total of 10. 5 dice each with no defense test is on average 1, almost 2, net hits. That's 8P each which they can resist with Body 4 + armor 12. 16 dice each cuts an average of 3 damage off while the armor converts the damage to stun. Both goons are now taking a -1 to their initiative, meaning our goon with 1 init doesn't get to go this turn. Poor luck chummer.

This is a great example, but you miss worded a couple things, namely the free actions, adjust a linked weapon is a free action not a simple, next Multiple Attack is also a free action that must attached to attack action. Clearly this just a miss wording because you get it right everywhere else in the example. But as this is a great example I do think it's worth mentioning, for the sake of the readers. Of course under normal rules you're limited to a 1 free action per action phase and of course 2 simple actions, so you need your gm to agree to let all that happen. But given that our runner was waiting in ambush, I don't see any trouble with it. (For those interested see core 192 for a nice table on action category, and 196 for multi-attack, though I think run and gun may explain it more clearly in some way.)  Thank you for writing it.

[gradivus]

Some interesting points there ZAP. Though I hope a guy with a pool of 8 will know better to to divide up 8 dice into two attacks.

I'm on the road with no rules, but assuming two different  1-handed FA weapons
Can you multi attack and lay down suppressive fire in two different arcs?
If its possible, then that's the only way  I'd split an 8 dice pool.

Of course I rule that the PCs/NPCs in suppressive fire or adjacent that don't have cover have to decide before the actual roll whether to drop prone or not. YMMV

[Marcus]

Some interesting points there ZAP. Though I hope a guy with a pool of 8 will know better to to divide up 8 dice into two attacks.

I'm on the road with no rules, but assuming two different  1-handed FA weapons
Can you multi attack and lay down suppressive fire in two different arcs?
If its possible, then that's the only way  I'd split an 8 dice pool.

Of course I rule that the PCs/NPCs in suppressive fire or adjacent that don't have cover have to decide before the actual roll whether to drop prone or not. YMMV

For two arcs I doubt it, but I'd need to dig some to know for sure.
To be fair suppression fire isn't one of the things that I tend to mess with. Last time I was dealing with it a lot was back in 4th, mainly lots of assault weapons.

[ZombieAcePilot]

Example time! I love example time.

As do I!

Pass 1:
Runner on 18 spends a simple action and swaps to burst fire mode on her Ares Crusader II. A second simple action and she quick draws with a pool of 9. She uses a simple action to make this into a multiple attack, placing 2 shots on the first target and 1 on the last. She totals up her dice pool getting 5 Agility + 4 Automatics + 1 for wireless non-implanted smartgun for a total of 10. 5 dice each with no defense test is on average 1, almost 2, net hits. That's 8P each which they can resist with Body 4 + armor 12. 16 dice each cuts an average of 3 damage off while the armor converts the damage to stun. Both goons are now taking a -1 to their initiative, meaning our goon with 1 init doesn't get to go this turn. Poor luck chummer.

This is a great example, but you miss worded a couple things, namely the free actions, adjust a linked weapon is a free action not a simple, next Multiple Attack is also a free action that must attached to attack action. Clearly this just a miss wording because you get it right everywhere else in the example. But as this is a great example I do think it's worth mentioning, for the sake of the readers. Of course under normal rules you're limited to a 1 free action per action phase and of course 2 simple actions, so you need your gm to agree to let all that happen. But given that our runner was waiting in ambush, I don't see any trouble with it. (For those interested see core 192 for a nice table on action category, and 196 for multi-attack, though I think run and gun may explain it more clearly in some way.)  Thank you for writing it.

Changing device mode is a simple action normally. To do it as a free you need a DNI, which the runner didn't have. I did fudge up the first multiple attack. I'll fix that.

Some interesting points there ZAP. Though I hope a guy with a pool of 8 will know better to to divide up 8 dice into two attacks.

I'm on the road with no rules, but assuming two different  1-handed FA weapons
Can you multi attack and lay down suppressive fire in two different arcs?
If its possible, then that's the only way  I'd split an 8 dice pool.

Of course I rule that the PCs/NPCs in suppressive fire or adjacent that don't have cover have to decide before the actual roll whether to drop prone or not. YMMV

For two arcs I doubt it, but I'd need to dig some to know for sure.
To be fair suppression fire isn't one of the things that I tend to mess with. Last time I was dealing with it a lot was back in 4th, mainly lots of assault weapons.

I don't think it is possible. I doesn't list that you can use it with a multiple attack action like it does the others that can use it.

[Shadowjack]

Yikes, I get busy for a day and find that the thread has doubled in size In the interest of fairness allow me to quote a few things from the book.

"Attributes are the inherent characteristics of your shadowrunner, the basic abilities they bring to the table. Shadowrunners have a numerical rating for each attribute, which is used to help determine the amount of dice rolled for tests in the game. Attributes fall into three different groups: Physical, Mental, and Special. Every character has a rating in each of the Physical and Mental attributes, though they may not have ratings in the Special attributes. For humans, all attributes are between 1 and 6, though certain modifications and qualities can change this. Metatypes have different ranges in these attributes, as seen on the table on p. 65."

"LOGIC (LOG) The Logic attribute measures the cold, calculating power of your rational mind. Whether you are attempting to repair complicated machinery or patch up an injured teammate, Logic helps you get things right. Logic is also the attribute hermetic mages use to resist Drain from the spells they rain down on their hapless foes. Deckers also find Logic extremely useful, as it helps them develop the attacks and counterattacks that are part of their online battles."

"CHARISMA (CHA) Charisma is your force of personality, the persuasiveness and charm you can call on to get people to do what you want without having to go to the trouble of pulling a gun on them. It’s not entirely about your appearance, but it’s also not entirely not about your appearance. What it’s mostly about is how you use what you have—your voice, your face, your words, and all the tools at your disposal—to charm and/or intimidate the people you encounter. Additionally, Charisma is an important attribute for shamanic mages, as it helps them resist the damaging Drain from spells they cast."

"Skill ranks are independent of attributes, but they don’t work alone. The most common dice pools that you roll when you take actions comprise one skill and one attribute. You can study until you know every aspect of Spellcasting, but if you don’t have the raw Magic ability (as measured by your attribute) to apply it, you won’t be as powerful as you could be. While a skill isn’t always paired with a single attribute, each skill has a linked attribute to which the skill is most closely related. This doesn’t mean you’ll always roll a skill with its linked attribute, but you’ll see the two together a lot. A list of linked attributes and their skills appears on p. 151."

"SKILL RATINGS
The higher your skill rating, the better you are with that skill. Someone without the Pistols skill has watched enough trideo to understand that you point the weapon away from yourself and pull the trigger, but that doesn’t make them as good as a character with even an introductory skill level who has a decent firing stance and knows enough to check the safety before firing. The skill Rating is a numerical value ranging from 1, representing the most rudimentary skill, to 12 (or 13 with the Aptitude quality) representing the height of sentient achievement. When you see them written, the skill rating comes immediately after the name of the skill. Rating 5 Hacking is written as “Hacking 5” on the character sheet and in other game materials. A skill’s Rating adds to the number of dice you use to perform the action with the skill. The rules will call for the skill and an attribute to go along with it—just add the Ratings together and pick up that many dice. For example, hitting a Halloweener over the head with a metal pipe calls for Clubs + Agility—if your Agility is 3 and your Clubs skill is 4, you get 7 dice for the attack."

"This is a list of what the skill Ratings mean, so that you can get beyond the numbers and see where your character falls in the general scheme of metahumanity.
NO RATING: UNAWARE This is something other than having no ranks in a skill—this is a special level of ignorance. You haven’t the first clue about this skill. This level can only be achieved through a quality (like the Incompetent negative quality, p. 81), or maybe a character history explaining the deficiency. You can’t default the skill, and it never really occurs to you to even use it to solve your problems.
RATING 0: UNTRAINED The default level of knowledge obtained through interaction with society and the Matrix. Though untrained, you have a general awareness of the skill, and occasionally may even be able to fake it.
RATING 1: BEGINNER You have a little training about how it works, but not always why it works.
RATING 2: NOVICE You’re a hobbyist, but not an enthusiast.
RATING 3: COMPETENT You’re skilled at basic operations but struggle with complex operations and “tricks.”
RATING 4: PROFICIENT You’re comfortable with what you do and perform well under normal pressures. Professional level for most jobs.
RATING 5: SKILLED You know how to handle yourself in unfamiliar situations, and can get creative when solving problems.
RATING 6: PROFESSIONAL You could easily sell your skills on the open market. This is the maximum skill level for starting player characters.
RATING 7: VETERAN You’ve seen a lot of what the skill can do, and what it can’t. Other people ask you how to do it.
RATING 8: EXPERT You are a highly sought-after talent. Corporations seek you out (or extract you from other corporations).
RATING 9: EXCEPTIONAL Your name is synonymous with the skill. If you have multiple skills at this level, you’re lauded as exceptionally gifted.
RATING 10: ELITE You are famous, even among the very best in your field.
RATING 11: LEGENDARY You are a paragon to those trying to excel at your skill. Techniques are named after you.
RATING 12–13: APEX You have reached the pinnacle of mortal achievement. This expertise represents the top 0.00001% of all practitioners in known history. The very highest rating, 13, can only be reached with the Aptitude quality (p. 72)"

Here are my thoughts.

What does your skill rating represent? "The higher your skill rating, the better you are with that skill. Someone without the Pistols skill has watched enough trideo to understand that you point the weapon away from yourself and pull the trigger, but that doesn’t make them as good as a character with even an introductory skill level who has a decent firing stance and knows enough to check the safety before firing. The skill Rating is a numerical value ranging from 1, representing the most rudimentary skill, to 12 (or 13 with the Aptitude quality) representing the height of sentient achievement."

What does your attribtue rating represent? "Attributes are the inherent characteristics of your shadowrunner, the basic abilities they bring to the table"

What does your dice pool represent? It represents the combination of your inheritant characteristics and your efficiency with a particular skill.

Base on all of that, which is directly from the core book, I think you should be able to see how I've formed my opinions on these matters.

Now let's talk about attributes.

As some of you pointed out, having a low attribute rating does not mean that you are at the bottom level of capability in the respective attribute. A person with a charisma for 1 does not have any specific disadvantage, it represents his overall  ability to interact with and manipulate others. That person is unlikely to be able to get people to do what he wants unless he has high skills ratings, gear, magic, etc. A person with 1 logic is not mentally challenged or even extremely stupid, he is someone that struggles with certain technical tasks within the game.

Which brings me back to my point about dump stats. All attributes can be detrimental during the game if they have a rating of 1. It is the GM's job to both recognize this and decide whether or not to utilize it to enhance the quality of the game. The Street Sam with 1 Charisma and no social skills should have a hard time in a complex social situation, such as attending a fancy corporate party and attempting to maintain his disguise. You also need to consider attribute tests and tests such as composure and memory. It is my opinion that it is perfectly acceptable to begin the game with any rating in any attribute. Stating that having high or low ratings is power gaming would be false imho. Low ratings can be very immersive and entertaining and removing the player's ability to select them is essentially taking an element of fun out of the game. Some of the smartest people I've met in life were also the last ones I'd take with me on a run, and some of the dumbest could be the best. I don't think polarized stats need to be discriminated against.

Regarding the distiction between dice pools, attributes, and skills, I do think that your skill rating matters a tremendous deal, but only for immersion. If you don't place a huge importance on it then it wouldn't be an issue for you. But I can not imagine a guy that tried in college, was very intelligent, and left with only rating 1 Biotechnology.  He may have bioware to boost his brainpower and he might even have SOTA tools at his disposal, but I feel it would be somewhat immersion breaking to say that he graduated from college with a degree in biotechnology, even if he has a dice pool of 15. It is nuances like this that make me place a large importance on skill ratings and I tend to think of both the attributes and the skills to reach the level of immersion I prefer.

[Marcus]

ZBA there is one more thing  16 (4 body+12 armor) soak dice averages to 5 damage removed not 3.

[FST_Gemstar]

Per your example: I would agree that I would not be interested in saying that a character with 15 dice in biotechnology and but one skill level graduated from college in with a degree in biotechnology. I would tell a different story about that dice pool.  Maybe as exchange for cheaper bioware implant, the character promised to help the surgeon with some research work that his new brainpower would be useful for. The character did enough research to learn the basics, but his natural/enhanced intellect put him on par with the goof-off corps kids who spend more time complaining about their biotechnology tests than studying for them. So I agree that there is immersion issues in describing character, but it still doesn't change how good someone is at something. You can be good at biotechnology if you studied in school, or good at it if you read a few books, or if you are a renowned bioware engineer. Dicepools measure that, not skill/narrative. If there is narrative/character issues, it's ok to think up new stories/backgrounds that still make sense for character.

[Strange]

I like to look at the attributes vs. skills this way...
Imagine an elf who is supernaturally agile (7).  Compare him with your average slightly athletic human (4).  Both of these fellas are pretty in tune with their body, how it works, etc.  The elf, however, even with a skill of only 1 in stealth, can still sneak quite well because even though he isn't highly trained, he is naturally quiet when he walks. 

Now I know what you are going to say, a pool of 8 isn't 'quite good' but according to the game, it actually is.  For the average human, that would be a skill of 5.  That is someone with a fair amount of training.  Against other average people, he would generally be quite proficient, being that the average person an Intuition of 3 and no ranks in perception. 

Now for a shadowrunner, 8 dice and $1.25 will get you a cup of coffee.  Shadowrunners are supposed to be quite good at what they are doing, and a sneak elf with have a combined total somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 dice.  That is crazy.  against average people that shadowrunner is a GHOST!  Against people who are trained to spot infilitrators, however, he has a chance of being discovered. 

I do have umbrage with the karma advancement system, however.  I think the rewards are a bit low, I would increase them by 25% personally.

[ZombieAcePilot]

ZBA there is one more thing  16 (4 body+12 armor) soak dice averages to 5 damage removed not 3.

You are correct. I'm sure that's what I was thinking, but not what I wrote. I have to step away from my writing to look at it with fresh eyes to see these things for myself... or get someone else to point them out. Not conducive to a quick paced forum discussion, unfortunately.

I think I also forgot a modifier for shooting in melee at the end. I'm going to do some revision.

[Edit] And done! Don't worry, our weapons specialist still comes out on top.
If you want a fun take on the same combat, get two tasers with quick draw holsters and see how much faster you can drop them dual wielding defiance EX-Shockers or even a stun baton.

[Glyph]

Shadowjack, while I have seen people get low-rated complementary skills for their character (rating: 1 sneaking and pilot ground craft for a street samurai with augmented agility and reaction; rating: 1 first aid for a decker with a high logic and cerebral boosters), I have not seen them described as having degrees or being experts in those skills.  They may compete with skilled normals in effectiveness, but they will still be outperformed by true pro runners, who will have enhanced attributes and high skills on top of that.

I think ZombieAcePilot captured the verisimilitude well with his example of gramps and the punk kid, who had the same dice pool but a different description for it.  Because in the end, descriptions should support how the rules actually work.  And in the rules, skills, while important, are only one of two (or up to four) components of the dice pool.  There is skill, raw talent (attributes), and sometimes dice pool modifiers from magic, high tech, or implants; and finally pure grit, gumption, and luck (edge).  I would rather describe how those aspects of a character work together, than give skill ratings an exaggerated importance.

[Facemage]

In the beginning of the thread you, Shadowjack, wanted to change the behaviour in this sub forum, when a newcomer comes here to ask help. He have just bought the corebook and succesfully created first character, Wolf the shaman:

A: Magic
B: Attributes
C: Skills
D: Metatype (elf)
E: Resources

Bod: 4
Rea: 3
Agi: 4
Str: 5
Cha 8
Int: 2
Log: 1
Will: 4

Skills:
Spellcasting 5
Astral combat 5 (the skills from A magic)
Counterspelling 2
Pistols 4
Astral combat 5
Gymnastics 3
Summoning 6
Arcana 2
Assensing 1
Alchemy 6
Artificing 1
Medicine 1
Con 1
Etiquette 2
Leadership 2
Negotiation 3 (he broke the skill group with the skill points)

Spells:
Increase reflexes
Improved invisibility
Detect magic
Ice sheet
Ball lightning
Fireball
Manabolt
Magic fingers
Lightning bolt
Increase charisma
Clairaudience

What should we say to him? Go and ask for your gm? This character contains lot of errors, useless spells and skills, overlapping, odd attribute values and so on.  He has 11 spells, more skill points than originally possible. It is unclear, where he has put his 25 karma points.

Despite the fact that how we interpret the attributes and skills, astral combat and artificing are still bad skills. If we ask him about the table in which he plays, he says that the gm uses archetype characters and karma levels are same as guildelines in the corebook. What should we do?

[Herr Brackhaus]

What should we say to him? Go and ask for your gm? This character contains lot of errors, useless spells and skills, overlapping, odd attribute values and so on.  He has 11 spells, more skill points than originally possible. It is unclear, where he has put his 25 karma points.

Despite the fact that how we interpret the attributes and skills, astral combat and artificing are still bad skills. If we ask him about the table in which he plays, he says that the gm uses archetype characters and karma levels are same as guildelines in the corebook. What should we do?

Start by pointing out the obvious mistakes that actually break the rules, and ask for clarification on anything that may not make sense to you, including asking about table specific rules instead of just applying blanket template "You should have this many dice in X".

And in your example, 11 spells is possible as long as he paid 5 karma for the last one (Magic 6 from Priority A times 2 = 12).

Maximum number of spells/rituals/preparations known at Character Creation equals Magic Rating x 2

A simple "where did you spend karma, and what positive and negative qualities did you pick" would be a good start.

[Marcus]

ZBA there is one more thing  16 (4 body+12 armor) soak dice averages to 5 damage removed not 3.

You are correct. I'm sure that's what I was thinking, but not what I wrote. I have to step away from my writing to look at it with fresh eyes to see these things for myself... or get someone else to point them out. Not conducive to a quick paced forum discussion, unfortunately.

I think I also forgot a modifier for shooting in melee at the end. I'm going to do some revision.

[Edit] And done! Don't worry, our weapons specialist still comes out on top.
If you want a fun take on the same combat, get two tasers with quick draw holsters and see how much faster you can drop them dual wielding defiance EX-Shockers or even a stun baton.

No worries man, I read it at-least 4 times during my original post and totally missed each time, and I'm not trying to nitpickie. TY!

[Shadowjack]

What do you mean "useless spells and skills"? Can you prove that they're useless? Afaik they are all useless, perhaps you just don't like them for a particular reason? Astral Combat may be in an odd state but I think it is fine to take it anyway and a friend of mine did just that on his new character. Artificing seems fine to me. It may be an unusual choice for a shadowrunner but I think it can be fun and I've used it myself. Any skill or spell is a good choice if the player finds it entertaining.

I think it would be ideal if this person had a form to fill out so we would all know what type of help he is seeking. I think it would help a lot if we knew where he put his karma, as you said. What I would suggest is to tell him that you like his character and give him encouraging feedback. If you think something doesn't add up, tell him, but I would avoid making absolute statements about the value of any particular item, spells, attribute, etc because it is highly subjective.The only skill that strike me as fairly odd is Medicine, I'd probably inquire about that instead of telling him to remove it. The attributes don't really bother me either. I think the best approach is to point out areas where he broke the rules and provide positive feedback, then ask what kind of help he would like.