[Facemage]

Herr Brackhaus, interesting playing experiences. I can imagine that you have had fun.

It's possible to give more karma and money rewards. Yes. And at least in our table we also do so. But in this forum we cannot assume houserules and with RAW a character with a lot of 4 in his skills is progressing very slowly. And bad reward rules are maybe the another reason to recommend minmaxed characters. Maybe if the game designers changed the rules, you would see less optimization?

In sr1, the cost to rise str from 1 to 6 was 20 karma. Now with 20 karma you can get your str from 3 to 4, which is nothing. In later editions they changed the progression cost of attributes to 5 x new value, which is too much. The Catalyst have not changed the karma or money rewards. The initiation costs are still the same as in sr1. That's why they are quite cheap now. And because of that, the prime runner mages typically buy only initiations and magic. It should not be like that.

[Herr Brackhaus]

But in this forum we cannot assume houserules and with RAW a character with a lot of 4 in his skills is progressing very slowly.

Point of contention; mission rewards are not house rules. There are no rules for run rewards, only guidelines, and the book itself even specifically points this out (emphasis mine):

Gamemasters have the freedom to set up pay as they see fit, but these optional guidelines can help make that task easier while also building consistency from game to game. Note also that rewards may be supplemented by bonus equipment allowances as the gamemaster sees fit.

[Facemage]

But in this forum we cannot assume houserules and with RAW a character with a lot of 4 in his skills is progressing very slowly.

Point of contention; mission rewards are not house rules. There are no rules for run rewards, only guidelines, and the book itself even specifically points this out (emphasis mine):

Gamemasters have the freedom to set up pay as they see fit, but these optional guidelines can help make that task easier while also building consistency from game to game. Note also that rewards may be supplemented by bonus equipment allowances as the gamemaster sees fit.

You are right! But from reward threads you can see that the players here really use those rules.

[Shadowjack]

But what is powergaming?

That is a question with no clear answer

It's the same as obscenity: "I know it when I see it."

For me, clearly I like what I'll simply call higher dice pool builds but stuff like the 4e pornomancer or 40 soak cyberlimb stuff--what most people just call cheese--that's beyond my tolerance limit because it's gone from "effective at your job" to "it's pointless to roll against this because it just steamrolls anything doing this opposed check without any risk at all." That stuff is basically the SR equivalent to Pun-Pun for me.

Herr Brackhaus, good catch. I don't know you too well but I'm really liking the posts you're making here I bet you'd be a really fun person to game with.

Your preference there is interesting to me. I think some things can be stacked up to pretty extreme levels, armor being the common culprit. But for me, if I envision my character as a fully chromed "tank" I would like to build him, even if he will turn out to be extremely powerful. I would just try to add thematic elements and not go for 100% optimization.

Facemage, you raise a good point. I must note that my group does give larger amounts of karma per session, usually in the 6 to 11 range. I can sympathize completely with people that feel restricted by the miniscule karma rewards, it is definitely something that feels uncomfortable. I know that if I begin the game with Longarms 4 as my primary attack skill I am going to spend a good chunk of time getting it up to rating 6 or higher, which I could have easily attained during character creation. That truth combined with the priority system being a power gamers wet dream can explain a lot of why people want to do it. But previous editions have been like this too, people have always wanted to power game in Shadowrun. I have heard quite a few people say that "fluff" skills should be knowledge skills 100% of the time and that is the only conceivable way to handle it. I took a shitload of flack for defending skills like Performance and Artisan. I bet a lot of these guys would frown on Animal Handling, Biotechnology, and other uncommon shadowrunner skills.

[Marcus]

Well, that was excessive.

Well I was hoping it wouldn't come to that, but I cannot say I am surprised. I thought I was polite and respectful, but I call it like I see it. 
Just keep in mind who you're supporting and agreeing with Herr B. Hate filled ignorance has a way of spreading sadly.

[Whiskeyjack]

the priority system being a power gamers wet dream

Leaving aside the fact that prio is a much weaker optimization system than 4e's BP, what point are you trying to make now exactly, beyond "I'm right and the rest of you should feel bad," because that's basically the implication of every post you've made for at least a page, no matter how much you keep denying that that is your intent.

I mean, feel free to go ahead and deny it again, IMO there's no credibility to those denials given statements like this.

[Herr Brackhaus]

You are right! But from reward threads you can see that the players here really use those rules.

That's their problem, not mine, quite honestly. I reward my players handsomely if that's the kind of game they are after, or hardly at all if we're playing up the dystopia of the setting. The rules are all just guidelines; it's up to the table, not just the GM, to make the game fun for everyone

Just keep in mind who you're supporting and agreeing with Herr B. Hate filled ignorance has a way of spreading sadly.

No matter how hard I try to live by the Dao, Marcus, I can't make someone else's Dharma for them. *shrugs*

[Rooks]

But what is powergaming? 20+ dices in your attack pool? If you select the following:
Automatics 6
Assault rifles specialization 2
Agility 7 (elf)
Muscle augmentation 2
Smart link 2

Total 19. Is this powergaming?

No not even close Elf Cyber Arm Max out Agi (9) customize limb +3 Sync +1 after the first round of combat Automatics 6 Machine/SMG/Assault Rifles Specialization 2 adept with improved ability 3 or a hacker adept with 6 computer matrix perception specialization hacking 6 hack on the fly 2 soft nanohive 3 used with limbic and neocortical adept with improved ability hacking 3 and computers with cereberal booster 2 and cerebelum booster 1

[ZeldaBravo]

It is a very real thing. I've spoken to people that told me I should never take Performance or Artisan under any circumstances and then he went on to bash me quite a bit.

Those are douchebags, not powergamers. Those two categories overlap but are not the same.

the priority system being a power gamers wet dream

Leaving aside the fact that prio is a much weaker optimization system than 4e's BP, what point are you trying to make now exactly, beyond "I'm right and the rest of you should feel bad," because that's basically the implication of every post you've made for at least a page, no matter how much you keep denying that that is your intent.

I mean, feel free to go ahead and deny it again, IMO there's no credibility to those denials given statements like this.

Yeah, this too.

[Shadowjack]

the priority system being a power gamers wet dream

Leaving aside the fact that prio is a much weaker optimization system than 4e's BP, what point are you trying to make now exactly, beyond "I'm right and the rest of you should feel bad," because that's basically the implication of every post you've made for at least a page, no matter how much you keep denying that that is your intent.

I mean, feel free to go ahead and deny it again, IMO there's no credibility to those denials given statements like this.

I'll say one thing to you, maybe you'll listen, maybe not. I knew coming in that there was going to be controversy. It doesn't matter how these threads start out, the arguments are misconstrued over and over. If you don't believe me you should try taking a look around the net, this discussion has popped up many times and spans across many systems. The way it usually goes is this.

1. Non power gamer makes a criticism about power gaming. This may be for any number of reasons, some noble, some disruptive.
2. Power gamers reply fiercely, often jumping to conclusions OR responding to offensive suggestions
3. There is a lot of confusion on both sides, points are not articulated well or are ignored completely
4. Tensions rise
5. The original poster is accused of being pretentious, holier-than-though, a jackass, etc

That's pretty much how it goes. Many posters in this thread responded appropriately by challenging my point of view, sharing it or providing their own insight. That is essentially what I wanted. Some posters took my statements as an attack, which it was not intended to be. I have repeated myself on many occasions in an attempt to prove that my intentions were not malicious and that I respect different playstyles, I even said that I've tried them myself. However, I have always found this particular sub forum to be very discouraging. The faces change and while things were much more viscious in the past, power gaming is the norm here. I try to advocate a different approach, one that does not bash character concepts. Each group plays differently and I am not trying to change that. I'm simply stating that I think many people here are overlooking some diamonds in the rough and perhaps they would enjoy the game more if they gave these things some thought. I'm not forcing you to do anything, by all means, play the game you want, but be open minded about the possibilities within the system and refrain from making absolute statements with regards to character creation.

I remember when I was about 15 years old I was DMing a DnD campaign. I was much more power game oriented at the time, if I saw a way to make my character "better" I'd probably do it. I didn't consider all the subtle elements of the game, I was too inexperienced. My Brother was 9 years old and played a Paladin. He selected the Running Feat, whatever it was called. I told him that it was no good and that he should take a useful feat like Weapon Focus because it was always useful in combat. Naturally, he followed my advice. At the time I thought nothing of it, but many years later I realized that I had done a bad thing. I looked at the thing he selected because he thought it was cool and I told him that it wasn't cool and encouraged him to remove it. I still feel a bit bad about that for some reason. That is the sort of activity I see here all the time. When you create your character you should be allowed to create it the way you see fit. If you ask for advice and others are willing to provide it, great! But when giving advice please do not destroy the fun for the player.

ZeldaBravo, that may be true.

[Facemage]

But what is powergaming? 20+ dices in your attack pool? If you select the following:
Automatics 6
Assault rifles specialization 2
Agility 7 (elf)
Muscle augmentation 2
Smart link 2

Total 19. Is this powergaming?

No not even close Elf Cyber Arm Max out Agi (9) customize limb +3 Sync +1 after the first round of combat Automatics 6 Machine/SMG/Assault Rifles Specialization 2 adept with improved ability 3 or a hacker adept with 6 computer matrix perception specialization hacking 6 hack on the fly 2 soft nanohive 3 used with limbic and neocortical adept with improved ability hacking 3 and computers with cereberal booster 2 and cerebelum booster 1

A good example. But should anyone create something like this? I myself think that not. I think that a suitable level is enough good. The good reference is those archetype characters (typical enemies against you after chargen). If you can win them almost always, you are enough good. Technically I think that pool of ~16 dices is enough. More is overkill. If you already hit, it's not essential that how many additional net hits did you get. You can put the rest resources to something otherwise useful, like stealth or social skills?

[Darzil]

I said that power gamers are usually less experienced in the hobby

Not my experience. Mine is that players move towards systems they enjoy, and that if they enjoy both powergaming and roleplaying they'll do both.

As it happens, in the campaign I am running, there is what you may think a very powergamed character (and it is), using Transhuman Prototype to great advantage in a spellcaster. However, as the character has so little real world experience, their interactions with the others have led to much of the entertainment, and in some sessions even dominated on time.

The biggest issues with gaming and optimisation are that players should be at a similar level of effectiveness at a table, and want roughly the same from the game. If some want realism and others escapism, you'll have an issue.

The biggest issues with forums such as these is that people post without context, without the clarity that comes from being face to face, from different backgrounds, and some do not bring the politeness (or otherwise) that the reader/responder is used to. We all live in a wide variety of worlds, with different attitudes, and will bump up against each other in a way that happens far less often in the real world, where we are more likely to be of similar background.

[gradivus]

That's why I was very particular in using Whiskeyack for my example.

I assumed, given all the posts of his he wrote and I have read, that he would actually read the whole post and not just jump down my throat accusing me of being negative towards him.

There are others, no naming names as not to start a flame war, that I would not in ten million years write about in the same manner... because, having read their posts, I assume they'll start cursing me out. And that doesn't lead to anything constructive.

So yes- these types of discussions, whether it be about gaming styles or the difference between a clip/mag (no, please don't comment on this, just an example), it always seems to blow up.

[gradivus]

I said that power gamers are usually less experienced in the hobby

I started playing Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D) in 1977- heck had the 1974 rules just never played them, just read em. By 1979 I was playing the monstrosty of a miniatures rules WRG 5th edition. It's over 35 years later.

I've played with a lot of guys over the decades.

Power gaming has nothing to do with how long they've played.
On the top of the list are Alpha males cause they don't want to be second at anything.
But even Secondary Alpha and Beta-males can be power gamers and a few Alphas are not.
There are no absolutes, just generalizations.

I've seen some guys change modes- but most that I knew as power gamers are still power gamers and most who weren't still aren't.

[Shadowjack]

I said that power gamers are usually less experienced in the hobby

Not my experience. Mine is that players move towards systems they enjoy, and that if they enjoy both powergaming and roleplaying they'll do both.

As it happens, in the campaign I am running, there is what you may think a very powergamed character (and it is), using Transhuman Prototype to great advantage in a spellcaster. However, as the character has so little real world experience, their interactions with the others have led to much of the entertainment, and in some sessions even dominated on time.

The biggest issues with gaming and optimisation are that players should be at a similar level of effectiveness at a table, and want roughly the same from the game. If some want realism and others escapism, you'll have an issue.

The biggest issues with forums such as these is that people post without context, without the clarity that comes from being face to face, from different backgrounds, and some do not bring the politeness (or otherwise) that the reader/responder is used to. We all live in a wide variety of worlds, with different attitudes, and will bump up against each other in a way that happens far less often in the real world, where we are more likely to be of similar background.

Very eloquent, you have an impressive way with words. The reason I believe that powergamers tend to be less experienced is because most players begin roleplaying by trying to make the most badass character they can create. They may not know how to create a powerful character but they want to, and when it happens, they enjoy it a lot. A lot of groups stay in that mentality permanently, I'd go so far as to say that most groups do. Tune into any rpg stream on Twitch any chances are very high that you'll be watching a group that uses minimal description, rolls a lot of dice, and has a table full of powerful characters. That is the normal group these days. Tuning into a channel with actual roleplaying is much more rare, especially with the less established (and presumably less experienced) channels. As times goes on I have noticed that players begin to evolve and start making changes to the way they play. Voice acting, writing backgrounds, focusing more on description, etc. It is also common to see former powergamers transition into the roleplaying side more. Again, I am not saying that all power gamers are and always were poor roleplayers, please do not overlook this statement. Experienced players are far more likely to choose fluff skills and have their backgrounds actually match their character. Again, not always the case but much more likely than the other way around. Part of this is due to the fact that older players are likely to be more mature, more intelligent, more socially aware, more experienced and already have a lot of real world experiences, many of which will be comprised of considerable success in one or more areas.

Again, and I should not have to repeat myself so often but I feel that I have no choice, I am not saying that power gamers are poor roleplayers I am saying that they *tend* to be less experienced. You may consider this to be a generalization but whatever it is, it is a statement that is backed by logic, experience and typical human behavior.

Gradivus, I like your posts btw and I don't have any bad thoughts about any characters you've presented, just so you know. I wrote this thread without any single person in mind