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When I Grow Up??

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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #15 on: <01-22-16/0924:12> »
Heavy pistols having slightly better ranges is pretty moot given the very close range of the average Shadowrun combat encounter.

I would also much rather deny defense dice.
Playability > verisimilitude.

ZombieAcePilot

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« Reply #16 on: <01-22-16/1924:12> »
While not concealable like a machine pistol, a shotgun is great for lowering defense pools when loaded with flechette. A medium choke at short range combined with a semi auto burst or double tap is some good shit. With a semi auto burst you are up to -5 (possibly against multiple targets) with a -1 to DV. With the double tap you only are putting out -3 to defense, but you lose no damage and only use 2 rounds for recoil comp. Plus you have a longer range. With flechette your short range is equal to a machine pistols medium range. That will mean less penalties for you.

Further, a shotgun like a Remington 990 has knock down power. Remember that damage can knock people down. Loaded with stick and shock a 990 does as much damage as the Defiance EX-Shocker at much larger ranges (with semi-auto capability). Of course it might be hard to carry a shotgun everywhere. if your goal is to always have a gun on you than I recommend pistols. All the combat ability in the world doesn't matter if you can't sneak it in with you. Pistols also has some of the best guns for quiet work. An Ares Light Fire 75 can be modded to give -8 to perception dice (special built in silencer, electronic firing, subsonic bullets). Combine that with the ability to hide a light pistol and you have a nice covert piece.

kyoto kid

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« Reply #17 on: <01-24-16/0222:06> »
Heavy pistols having slightly better ranges is pretty moot given the very close range of the average Shadowrun combat encounter.

I would also much rather deny defense dice.
...the Guardian is capable of full burst fire and has a better base DV than any of the machine pistols.

Full auto is firing 10 rounds for a -9 AP however you are going to lose dice to your pool (5) even with a Gas vent 3 and folding stock.  This means less potential for scoring a hit and a higher potential for a glitch considering the character's base dice pool.

If you are looking to do suppression fire, an Assault Rifle is better as they have higher ammo capacity as well as better base DV for the fool that tries to stand up in a hail of lead.  Just this last session the character on our team who was doing suppression fire actually took a couple of the oppos out.
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #18 on: <01-24-16/1206:26> »
...the Guardian is capable of full burst fire and has a better base DV than any of the machine pistols.
That's fair, I just think the category for Automatics is overall better. People reference tasers as everywhere-carry stuff...maybe it's my groups, I've never had an issue carrying heavier stuff around, especially with a good license. Of course this varies greatly table to table.

I've come around on Longarms a lot, though I don't recall them having a great conceal option.
Playability > verisimilitude.

ZombieAcePilot

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« Reply #19 on: <01-26-16/0229:41> »
A little comparison of Tasers.

1DV is roughly equal to -3AP.

A Ruger Super Warhawk is 9P -6AP. That is the strongest handgun available out of core. Its damage is the same as a Colt M23 loaded the same.
A Defiance EX-Shocker  is 9S(e) -5AP. You lose 1AP and gain the electrical traits. You also lose range with the taser, but gain the ability to use it in melee at slightly reduced damage (8 instead of 9).

Lowering defense is better than armor penetration because without a net hit you do nothing. Once you have that net hit they are equal if you are fine with either Physical or Stun damage as a result (AP is better for physical damage or for shooting through barriers).

The best damage code for a machine pistol is the Remington Suppressor at 7P -1AP. We could load it with APDS to get that to 7P -5AP. This is the same damage code as a Yamaha Pulsar, but without the electrical effects. You do lose some range with the taser, but you gain the electrical effects and legality in the bargain.

What some of these weapons net you is the ability to burst or full auto fire. Assuming that we can add a gas vent 3 and a collapsible stock to almost all of these we are looking at RC in the 5-6 range (More with higher STR or certain augmentations). This means we are looking at full bursts or simple action full auto with minimum to no loss from recoil. That's 4-5 dice our enemy loses and we can count at a rough 3 to 1DV. So that will net us an extra 1-2DV on average.

That means we can bump our suppressor up to 8-9P -5AP. That puts it on the level with a Defiance EX-Shocker for potential damage.
A Savalette Guardian does 8P -1AP. With APDS we are up to 8P -5AP. We can short burst ever round while resetting recoil compensation. That means we can take 2 dice from our enemies or 5 (but will start wracking up recoil, so this is an every other round option at best). On rounds we short burst we are looking at a rough 1 increase to DV. So the guardian almost equals the power of a Defiance EX-Shocker.

Burst and full auto fire are good options, but mechanically better for people with low pools (since the first net hit is the most important and the decrease to defense tests makes this more likely). The taser wins when it comes to damage and other effects when you can operate within its range and you are already likely to hit. In the end you can be effective with any of these options. Pistols gets you tasers, concealable options, and burst fire capability (no full auto). Automatics gets you the ability to get full auto and up into the bigger leagues with AR's, but excludes you from using the awesome, and legal, power of the taser.

Automatics covers a wider range of options for someone with only 1 skill for combat while pistols gives more varied options to a character who will have multiple combat skills and the augmentations to make them work.

kyoto kid

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« Reply #20 on: <01-29-16/0214:53> »
...a Ruger Warhawk with EXEX loses 3 AP compared to APDS but gains the same base DV as an Area Alpha (11P.) which makes it a very powerful handgun for someone with the right skill.
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