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Second Test Character Is This Rules Correct?

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Talgrath

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« Reply #15 on: <01-29-16/2048:16> »
Children was one of the examples given under the description of the code of honor quality, so it should be fine.  I agree heavy weapons as the only ranged skill is a bit weird - but I am also concerned about the practical applications.  There are limited times where hauling around a machine gun won't result in a SWAT team being called out, meaning that this character will be without a ranged attack too much of the time.  Even a point or two in pistols or throwing weapons would be a good idea.
Next sentence it specifies that if children are not regularly encountered in campaigns, the GM can reject the choice.  How often are you ordered to kill a child?  Not very, I'd imagine.  I'm not saying the GM can't allow it, I am just saying that perhaps the GM won't, i.e. not sure if it would fly.

Sure, but this could just be an example, instead you could say defenseless people, for example.  Everything as far as that quality is up to GM approval since it can be a little squishy in terms of what you might face.  If the GM is running a Renraku heavy campaign, Renraku personnel could be a valid option, for example.
Perhaps, except, again, I would bet you would have to do runs on renraku 100x more often than an orphanage. I'm saying choosin children is not in the spirit of the high reward from taking the quality, both from the standpoint that you will probably never be asked to kill a child and also from the standpoint that most runners would then automatically have that quality because they aren't demented. Compare "children" code of honor vs "warriors code" and tell me that are anywhere near each other. A gm who was any good wouldn't allow it.

Ah, but I'd point out that just because they aren't your primary goal doesn't mean they might not be around.  The quality doesn't make exceptions for "oopsies" and it doesn't care if it is your fault, if a member of your chosen group gets killed on a run no matter whose fault it is, you lose karma plus if someone is threatening a member of your chosen group you must act unless you succeed in a test to resist.  That said, it was just an example chosen based on the idea that the character would be a "big old softie" despite his massive size and physical prowess.  Personally I'd be okay with it as a GM because it gives me a ton of ways to screw with the characters more than just straight-up making some runs unworkable for the character, but like I said, it's one of those "squishy" qualities that will vary from GM to GM.
Any run involving killing innocent children, even accidently, would upset 90% of the runners out there.  That's my point, it's not a quality deserving of karma if everyone already has that code.  Losing a point of karma is only a small part of the code of honor, there are the aspects such as taking a run against said chosen group, leaving witnesses, and the roll to see if you intervene if anyone else is attempting to harm the protected group.  Kids make horrible witnesses, I have never seen a run that targeted killing a child, and anyone would intervene if someone was trying to kill a child.  You aren't losing anything to gain karma, in actuality.  Does that make sense?  Not sure if I am making my point clear or not.  It just seems cheesy, I guess, but whatever floats your boat.

Well and again, I guess it depends on the GM.  In other games (still new at this whole GMing Shadowrun thing) I frequently have children involved, often accidentally or as hostages.  In a recent campaign I had a villain shoot a kid in the head when the heroes wouldn't play by his rules, for example.  In Shadowrun, if someone had this quality, I might say have their car chase get close to a bus full of kids, thus forcing the child protector to take action to prevent casualties, perhaps putting his team in danger.  The ganger you were hired to kill might have a hostage and a gun.  The corporate executive you're trying to abduct might have his family visiting, etc.  To me, it seems, the idea seems to be setup to give the GM hooks that require the player to take action or face consequences.  Most runners aren't cold-hearted monsters, but taking this quality means a lot more than just being empathetic, it means being forced to do things to protect people.
It's just a little kid, how dangerous could it be?  - PC's last words

Strange

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« Reply #16 on: <01-29-16/2354:48> »
Children was one of the examples given under the description of the code of honor quality, so it should be fine.  I agree heavy weapons as the only ranged skill is a bit weird - but I am also concerned about the practical applications.  There are limited times where hauling around a machine gun won't result in a SWAT team being called out, meaning that this character will be without a ranged attack too much of the time.  Even a point or two in pistols or throwing weapons would be a good idea.
Again, not arguing that with you.  Look at the examples the quality shows, Assassin's Creed and Warrior's Code.  Both of those would probably affect you every single mission you do.  They both also include not harming children.  Just saying you won't harm children is a cheese move to get free karma because everyone is probably going to do the  most they can to make sure children do not get harmed, and they do not get karma for it.  Not arguing that there might be some super rare instance where you would have difficulties, I'm arguing that
Next sentence it specifies that if children are not regularly encountered in campaigns, the GM can reject the choice.  How often are you ordered to kill a child?  Not very, I'd imagine.  I'm not saying the GM can't allow it, I am just saying that perhaps the GM won't, i.e. not sure if it would fly.

Sure, but this could just be an example, instead you could say defenseless people, for example.  Everything as far as that quality is up to GM approval since it can be a little squishy in terms of what you might face.  If the GM is running a Renraku heavy campaign, Renraku personnel could be a valid option, for example.
Perhaps, except, again, I would bet you would have to do runs on renraku 100x more often than an orphanage. I'm saying choosin children is not in the spirit of the high reward from taking the quality, both from the standpoint that you will probably never be asked to kill a child and also from the standpoint that most runners would then automatically have that quality because they aren't demented. Compare "children" code of honor vs "warriors code" and tell me that are anywhere near each other. A gm who was any good wouldn't allow it.

Ah, but I'd point out that just because they aren't your primary goal doesn't mean they might not be around.  The quality doesn't make exceptions for "oopsies" and it doesn't care if it is your fault, if a member of your chosen group gets killed on a run no matter whose fault it is, you lose karma plus if someone is threatening a member of your chosen group you must act unless you succeed in a test to resist.  That said, it was just an example chosen based on the idea that the character would be a "big old softie" despite his massive size and physical prowess.  Personally I'd be okay with it as a GM because it gives me a ton of ways to screw with the characters more than just straight-up making some runs unworkable for the character, but like I said, it's one of those "squishy" qualities that will vary from GM to GM.
Any run involving killing innocent children, even accidently, would upset 90% of the runners out there.  That's my point, it's not a quality deserving of karma if everyone already has that code.  Losing a point of karma is only a small part of the code of honor, there are the aspects such as taking a run against said chosen group, leaving witnesses, and the roll to see if you intervene if anyone else is attempting to harm the protected group.  Kids make horrible witnesses, I have never seen a run that targeted killing a child, and anyone would intervene if someone was trying to kill a child.  You aren't losing anything to gain karma, in actuality.  Does that make sense?  Not sure if I am making my point clear or not.  It just seems cheesy, I guess, but whatever floats your boat.

Well and again, I guess it depends on the GM.  In other games (still new at this whole GMing Shadowrun thing) I frequently have children involved, often accidentally or as hostages.  In a recent campaign I had a villain shoot a kid in the head when the heroes wouldn't play by his rules, for example.  In Shadowrun, if someone had this quality, I might say have their car chase get close to a bus full of kids, thus forcing the child protector to take action to prevent casualties, perhaps putting his team in danger.  The ganger you were hired to kill might have a hostage and a gun.  The corporate executive you're trying to abduct might have his family visiting, etc.  To me, it seems, the idea seems to be setup to give the GM hooks that require the player to take action or face consequences.  Most runners aren't cold-hearted monsters, but taking this quality means a lot more than just being empathetic, it means being forced to do things to protect people.
Take a look at two examples it has in the quality, the assassin's creed and the warriors code.  If you notice, you have a bunch of restrictions, and children fall right in there with it.  You keep on bringing up super rare, if unheard of, situations that come out of your head.  All of those situations you present would be issues for the two aforementioned codes, and they have much more after that.  Does that make sense?  You are only choosing children, when the assassin's creed doesn't let you kill anyone, adults or children, who you aren't paid to kill.  Read the codes and tell me that you only taking children makes sense.  There is a reason code of honor isn't allowed in missions, because you would want to choose something that would never show up.  I don't know how I can explain it any better, so I will stop trying now.

Glyph

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« Reply #17 on: <01-30-16/1642:08> »
The reason children was both given as an example, and cautioned about, is that the effect of negative qualities is very campaign-dependent.  The GM always has the option to either disallow a flaw or insist on changes (such as making it women and children).  Going by Talgrath's sig, a code of honor to not harm children could be a significant restriction in his campaigns.