NEWS

Finding the true cost of things: An example.

  • 62 Replies
  • 19704 Views

MijRai

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1845
  • Kane's Understudy
« Reply #30 on: <02-13-16/1238:54> »
But Glyph, you can't really call it Apples to Oranges when they do the exact same thing, such as Muscle Replacement compared to Muscle Toner/Augmentation.  Or whenever another cyber/bio option has the exact same choices. At that point, they do need to be balanced with each other, otherwise people will always choose the one, making the other obsolete.   
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #31 on: <02-13-16/1328:33> »
But Glyph, you can't really call it Apples to Oranges when they do the exact same thing, such as Muscle Replacement compared to Muscle Toner/Augmentation.  Or whenever another cyber/bio option has the exact same choices. At that point, they do need to be balanced with each other, otherwise people will always choose the one, making the other obsolete.

Incorrect. The cyber will always be an option at a lower Resource level than the bio. It has always been cheaper in cash than the bio by a large margin.

The problem with this obsession with 'balance' is that it gets taken too far to an extreme where just about every cost gets boosted out of proportion or things end up 'nerfed' because someone throws a fit about supposedly "overpowered" or someone gets upset when they see what could be subjectively described as 'abuse'.

'Balance' can be important, but its pursuit just needs to be toned down, as there is no way to achieve it to perfection and still have a dynamic and interesting system.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Glyph

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1661
« Reply #32 on: <02-13-16/1415:59> »
But Glyph, you can't really call it Apples to Oranges when they do the exact same thing, such as Muscle Replacement compared to Muscle Toner/Augmentation.  Or whenever another cyber/bio option has the exact same choices. At that point, they do need to be balanced with each other, otherwise people will always choose the one, making the other obsolete.

Pistols do the same thing, too, but there are cheap pistols versus better but more expensive pistols.  If I am making a troll and have used my A and B Priorities on metatype and attributes, then at resources: C, getting used muscle replacement: 3 and used reaction enhancers: 3 will be a pretty tempting cheap boost.  But at A or B resources, muscle replacement will be much more rarely seen.  So people do tend to choose one over the other, depending on whether cheaper, or better, fits their build.  They would be unbalanced if muscle augmentation/toner was cheaper than muscle replacement as well as more Essence friendly.

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #33 on: <02-13-16/1546:29> »
They would be unbalanced if muscle augmentation/toner was cheaper than muscle replacement as well as more Essence friendly.

If both combined were cheaper at the same rating as replacement, then yes, but either one on its own really should be cheaper since either augmentation or toner only affects one attribute where replacement affects two.

Really, a fair pricing at current Essence costs given current amount of maximum Resources in generation (that information should ALWAYS be taken into account) would be:

12,000 per rating for Replacement (basically 6,000 per attribute increased)
8,500 per rating for Toner
8,000 per rating for Augmentation
Yes, the two bios would be cheaper in total price (which is where they should be cheaper), but on a per attribute basis, they end up being more expensive (this is where being more expensive for the reduced Essence should come into play).
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Glyph

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1661
« Reply #34 on: <02-13-16/1822:10> »
Those sound like fairer prices (some things went up too much in cost in SR5), although it runs into the same problem as dermal plating vs. orthoskin.  Namely, they are both so cheap that the price discrepancy matters a lot less, while the Essence gap is still as big.  So who wouldn't pony up the 4,500 per rating, to save 0.60 Essence per rating?

But that brings up the counterpart to Wakshaani's question.  Given that they work in very different ways, should bioware and cyberware have parity everywhere, or should there be areas where one or the other is blatantly superior?  Maybe muscle replacement should be the province of cheap thugs, like it was in SR4.

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #35 on: <02-13-16/1917:42> »
That is simple. The replacement is best for lower resources characters.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Shadowjack

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1061
« Reply #36 on: <02-13-16/1953:25> »
I would just like to throw two thoughts into this discussion.

1. I initially found the increased ware prices pretty brutal but I grew to like them, after all, this is very sophisticated technology.

2. The increased cost on ware for trolls is just devastating, troll samurais are not as fun to build as they used to be because their ware just costs way too much. This is a problem because troll racial stats are heavily weighted towards physical combat, yet they can't afford the things they need. It just feels too limiting.

*Note* These opinions are coming from a person that does not care about archetype balance.
Show me your wallet and I'll show you a man with 20 fingers.

Pap Renvela

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
« Reply #37 on: <02-13-16/2012:56> »
I would just like to throw two thoughts into this discussion.

1. I initially found the increased ware prices pretty brutal but I grew to like them, after all, this is very sophisticated technology.

2. The increased cost on ware for trolls is just devastating, troll samurais are not as fun to build as they used to be because their ware just costs way too much. This is a problem because troll racial stats are heavily weighted towards physical combat, yet they can't afford the things they need. It just feels too limiting.

*Note* These opinions are coming from a person that does not care about archetype balance.

Troll ware doesn't cost any more than anyone else,

Troll's pay 100% more for lifestyle.
Everything else is the same except the guy who wrote the rigger book decided to add a cost for trolls to be comfortable driving.
Why? Because.

Angelone

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1345
  • A decent perfection
« Reply #38 on: <02-14-16/2246:58> »
I believe that the three pieces of ware mentioned in the OP are fairly well balanced against each other. However(comma) I do not think that they are balanced against magic. I won't go into that here as I feel Wak will be doing a series of these and hope that topic will be one of them.

One semi off topic thing I want to throw my two rounds in on is that the raising of prices while lowering the available resources  makes both options less attractive than they were in previous editions. It makes it look like mundanes got a nerf vs magic users even though the opposite was needed.
REJOICE! For bad things are about to happen.
la vida no vale nada

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #39 on: <02-14-16/2302:54> »
One semi off topic thing I want to throw my two rounds in on is that the raising of prices while lowering the available resources  makes both options less attractive than they were in previous editions.

They said that they didn't even include the lower resources in the decision to raise the prices. Makes absolutely no sense not to, but...
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #40 on: <02-14-16/2350:29> »
Teh goal is to make the edition internally consistant with itself first, rather than be backwards-compliant. Where possible we do both, but where it can't be done, this generation wins over a previous one. Once a proper cost is found here, it doesn't really matter what the cost used to be.

That said, I know it can be jarring, and I know that some much lower costs were floated for some things, including cyber.

But we'll take a small break on that one to shift to talking about Trolls, since it's related.

Trolls are a pain in the butt.

Balancing most races isn't *that* hard (There're a few oddities, like racism vs Orcs, that are alwys sticking points, but that's relatively minor) ... but Trolls have such HUGE stat adjustmenst that they deform everything that they come into contact with. As many of you noticed, there's a problem with Trolls getting a high strength ... namely, after you start play, the Karma cost for boosting your Strength is enooooormous, same with Body. Trying to set up some kind of system where you'd remove the boosts of your attribute, then figure the cost, then re-increase it, was a bit of a headache... I mean, it's easy to see it, but hard to put that together and it's odd as a mechanic.

With a Troll, you have a further bit of attribute fun in that, for a while there, they didn't just get bonuses, but they had some penalties as well. If your Logic is lowered by 1, to a minimum of 1, then you have an odd cost situation based on what your attribute WAS, with a  1 Logic being a  bit of a 'freebie' while a higher Logic stat is penalized.

There's also a related issue in that, for quite a while, the reason people took Trolls was to take them at the bare min on Body and Strength, then boost the other attributes (especially menatl) to make a Mage who could suck up a bullet. As it was cheaper to do this than to directly buy a Body and Strength a point lower than what you got from being a Teensy Troll, it became a default way of doing things.

So, from teh design side, you have to make a few calls.

First, do you want to change Troll modifiers. If those modifiers are what's deforming the system, then they could be gotten rid of ... but, if you make them smaller, it clashes with tradition hard and, when possible, we like to retain things. Furthermore, if you lowered the Troll's bonuses, they'd be pretty hard to make distinctive from an Ork, so, we'll punt on that for now.

The next one is to determine when racial modifiers are put in place... before buying an attribute or after? At one point in time, it was before, on the grounds that you'd choose your race before picking attributes, so you'd have a 'floor' in place from which to buy things. As you can imagine, this quickly erased the ability to make a Troll that was big and strong. The Tiny Trolls still existed and were still a marvelous investment, but, that ties into the next issue:

What style of play do you want to encourage.

The archetype of a Troll is big, strong, and kind of dumb. If you want to encourage that, then you need them to get bonuses to Strength and penalities to Logic. If you want to encourage playing against type, then you give the modifiers BEFORE buying attributes, which saves the character a bajillion points for going Tiny but penalizes big and strong.

There are several approaches that you can take here. For instance, what happens if you give Trolls an ability that says all increaes in Strength or Body are at half cost? Or, failing that, some kind of bulk discount? What if you 'frontload' the cost of being a Troll and make the racial modifiers kick in *after* you buy attributes, to keep them competiive?

You also have to decide if Troll is, in and of itself, an archetype. Back in the day, since it was Priority A, being a Troll defined your character. Did you want to retain that, or do you want to make Troll not much different than being a redhead, from teh CAS, or left handed?

There are other issues of course... should there be a mechanic in place for racism against Trolls, or should it be a role-playing element at tables? If the latter, can you factor it into the cost of being a Troll? If you do, and that effect isn't used, is it bad that they get a 'freebie'? If you don't factor it in, but some tables really lay in to that aspect, is it fair? How do you want to approach Trolls being half again human size in terms of buying things? Shoudl all gear cost more? Just food? Should there be some kind of 'Big guy in a tiny car' penalty? Just how technical do you want to get?

Trying to shoehorn a Troll into Karmagen is very, very difficult, and trying to figure out how much they should cost is just one part of it.

While I can, and will, go into a few mechanical examples and show how some of this COULD be done, I want to open the floor up to y'all for a day or two first to see how you'd handle it. Do you nerf the Troll's bonuses? Do you do race mod before or after picking your attributes? How much should being a Troll cost?  Should there be a reward for playing to type? Should there be a reward for playing *against* type? Should there be a penalty in place for either form? Just how many Trolls do you want to see at an average table? Should Trolls just be removed as a PC race and moved back to the 'expanded' book (Run Faster was the eventual name) and possibly replaced by something else?

This was one of the more frustrating things that we had to deal with, believe it or not. They just don't fit well into the character design matrix and deform it by their very presence. But, by golly, we wanted them to be reflected.

MijRai

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1845
  • Kane's Understudy
« Reply #41 on: <02-15-16/0114:12> »
Okay, to start on your points again...

Does one nerf the Troll?  No, as the drawbacks should be great enough to counteract the positives.  Girth, racism, lowered Maximums, Lifestyle increases; all of these can hammer your character in various ways.  I was recently in a Pathfinder game with a Large character in a normal-sized dungeon.  It sucked, HARD.  Trying to maneuver or get line of sight was almost pointless.  Dealing with doorways and tiny, little chairs should be a pain in the ass.  Sure, some tables/GMs won't play it up and the Trolls there may seem overpowered, and other tables/GMs will over-emphasize the problems Trolls have and make them seem like liabilities.  It's a risk in any group.

Honestly, I think spending Attribute points before choosing Race would be good for ALL options.  Just have a rule in place where any Attribute point lopped off by a drop in your racial maximums can be reallocated (or an immediate expenditure of Karma for Exceptional Attribute to keep it where it is).  It gives a good 'this is what your character has focused on' before factoring in their natural talents.  It also shows what you are neglecting before the racial bonuses come into play, thus keeping you from looking like the average when you're not. 

I think being a Troll in Priority System should be a bit cheaper.  I'd go for Trolls being available at C with 0 Special Attribute points, B with 3, A with 5 (not that some people would take Troll at C because of the lack of Edge).  I'd also make it easier to be Dwarfs and Orks, giving them options at D.  Getting the metas out there as options means more people might take them, which means more variety, which makes things more interesting.  Hell, Orks are supposed to be close to 30% of the world's population, last time I checked Run Faster; they should be easier to grab in Priority at that point, even if you don't get Special Attribute points at the lower levels. 

There should be no mechanical reward written for playing 'to type' besides the stat bonuses being a Troll gives you.  That's why you're playing a Troll.

Likewise, there shouldn't be a mechanical reward for playing 'against type,' besides the stat bonuses being a Troll gives you.  That's why you're playing a Troll.

There also shouldn't be penalties for playing to or against type, besides what being a Troll already gives you.  That's why you're playing a Troll (or at least something you accepted when you chose a Troll).  There seems to be a theme here, in my opinion. 

I like to see as many Trolls as people want to play; I don't want to see a lack of Trolls because people feel punished for playing them, but I don't want to see everyone playing a troll just because they're a better option either (which I've seen with Elves before, which sucked).  That said, someday I'd love to play in an All-Troll-Team. 

I'd never remove Trolls as an option, myself.  I love them too much, even if I don't play them that often. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Shadowjack

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1061
« Reply #42 on: <02-15-16/0130:12> »
I would just like to throw two thoughts into this discussion.

1. I initially found the increased ware prices pretty brutal but I grew to like them, after all, this is very sophisticated technology.

2. The increased cost on ware for trolls is just devastating, troll samurais are not as fun to build as they used to be because their ware just costs way too much. This is a problem because troll racial stats are heavily weighted towards physical combat, yet they can't afford the things they need. It just feels too limiting.

*Note* These opinions are coming from a person that does not care about archetype balance.

Troll ware doesn't cost any more than anyone else,

Troll's pay 100% more for lifestyle.
Everything else is the same except the guy who wrote the rigger book decided to add a cost for trolls to be comfortable driving.
Why? Because.

I really wish that was true but there is errata for the price changes for trolls.

"TROLL LIFESTYLE COSTS  (P. 65, METATYPE & SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES) The second sentence of this section needs to be clarified. Change: “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also receive the disadvantage of having to pay an additional fifty percent for gear because everything—including cyberware and bioware—must be specially modified to meet their massive physical requirements.” To “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also have the disadvantage of having their Lifestyle costs doubled to reflect the costs of adapting everything they use—especially their gear, including cyberware or bioware—to meet their massive physical requirements."
Show me your wallet and I'll show you a man with 20 fingers.

Dinendae

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
« Reply #43 on: <02-15-16/0143:55> »

I think being a Troll in Priority System should be a bit cheaper.  I'd go for Trolls being available at C with 0 Special Attribute points, B with 3, A with 5 (not that some people would take Troll at C because of the lack of Edge).  I'd also make it easier to be Dwarfs and Orks, giving them options at D.  Getting the metas out there as options means more people might take them, which means more variety, which makes things more interesting.  Hell, Orks are supposed to be close to 30% of the world's population, last time I checked Run Faster; they should be easier to grab in Priority at that point, even if you don't get Special Attribute points at the lower levels. 


I agree with this, very much. Humans are available at every priority, as they should be. Elves go from A to D, with diminishing special attribute points (S.A.P.), Dwarves and Orks go from A to C, again with diminishing S.A.P., but Trolls get either A (with 5 S.A.P.) or B (with no S.A.P.)? Dwarves, Orks and Trolls should get one more priority choice, at zero S.A.P., with the higher priorities being along the lines MijRai suggested

Dinendae

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
« Reply #44 on: <02-15-16/0151:07> »
I would just like to throw two thoughts into this discussion.

1. I initially found the increased ware prices pretty brutal but I grew to like them, after all, this is very sophisticated technology.

2. The increased cost on ware for trolls is just devastating, troll samurais are not as fun to build as they used to be because their ware just costs way too much. This is a problem because troll racial stats are heavily weighted towards physical combat, yet they can't afford the things they need. It just feels too limiting.

*Note* These opinions are coming from a person that does not care about archetype balance.

Troll ware doesn't cost any more than anyone else,

Troll's pay 100% more for lifestyle.
Everything else is the same except the guy who wrote the rigger book decided to add a cost for trolls to be comfortable driving.
Why? Because.

I really wish that was true but there is errata for the price changes for trolls.

"TROLL LIFESTYLE COSTS  (P. 65, METATYPE & SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES) The second sentence of this section needs to be clarified. Change: “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also receive the disadvantage of having to pay an additional fifty percent for gear because everything—including cyberware and bioware—must be specially modified to meet their massive physical requirements.” To “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also have the disadvantage of having their Lifestyle costs doubled to reflect the costs of adapting everything they use—especially their gear, including cyberware or bioware—to meet their massive physical requirements."


The problem is probably coming from them unnecessarily mentioning cyberware and bioware in both descriptions, but forget that and just look at what they're actually talking about: The errata changed the original +50% gear cost (which would effect ware costs) to simply +50% Lifestyle costs. Yes they were justifying both by mentioning the costs of things versus their size, including ware, would increase, but the only thing you actually charge +50% more for is Lifestyle now instead of all gear. It is assumed that the increased lifestyle costs cover 'up-sizing' everything they use.