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What to do when a player tries to take up too much space in the group?

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Dampfish

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« on: <03-09-16/1213:51> »
I have a real problem on my hands that I don't really know how to deal with. This is me both asking for help but also just venting a little, so you'll please have to excuse me if it sounds like I'm starting to whine. But I would really like need some help with this.

I have a player in my group who is extremely disruptive and seem to think that everything revolves around him.
For example; whenever it's not his turn to do something he's more likely to be looking down at his phone or iPad than he is to be listening to anyone else, including me (i.e. the GM) and I almost always have to explain things at least twice because he didn't hear it the first time.
He's been playing with us once a week for over two months now but hasn't even bothered to learn the basics of the system, no matter how many times we explain them to him, and so he always asks for the books to look up the same things over and over again while we're playing (although I suspect this is also just a poorly concealed attempt at metagaming to try to get a leg up, but that's another topic).
He repeatedly gets up from the table and leaves the room, usually to either take a phone call or use the bathroom, and everytime he comes back basically the first thing he does is yell "Where is my character?!" or "What about me?!" - often when we're in the middle of something not even involving him. And when he's actually at the table he always laughs uproariously at even the slightest thing that can be construed as funny, or tries to be funny himself, basically killing every attempt at building mood and atmosphere to the point of sabotage.

I used to look forward to our weekly gaming sessions, but lately I've almost begun to dread them because it means I have to deal with this everytime.
But I don't really want to kick him out of the group though, because believe it or not he has actually improved now compared to when he first joined, but at the rate he's been going it'll be far too long before he reaches bearable levels. And I have a feeling that it'll split the group in half if I do, so that's not really an option unfortunately. Except as maybe a last ditch resort.

One of the other players approached me a while back after a session and basically voiced the exact same problems I had with him, so at least I know it's not just me. We've tried to talk to him about it privately, and the other player in question is even a colleague of his and she's been doing her best to talk to him about it every day at work, but it doesn't seem to stick.
The only other thing I've been able to come up with is to punish him in-game when he's "acting out" in real life, but there's a fine line between being strict and being a bully and it's a line I don't feel too comfortable crossing.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do about this situation?
"It's not my fault if you don't understand what I'm saying."

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #1 on: <03-09-16/1235:52> »
I've recently had the same problem with a new guy to our group. He used to play D&D, and has had trouble transitioning to Shadowrun. I have not GMed with him yet, but I have played 5 games now with him.

 Last game we reenacted the scene in Terminator 2.

Me: You just can't go around killing Everyone.

New Guy: Why?

Our Team: What do you mean why? 'Cause you can't.

New Guy: Why?

Our Team: Because you just can't, okay? Trust me on this.


We have yet to actually complete a run with him.

I'm going to be GMing soon with my friends, and I'm going to, politely as I can, say he's not invited. The ipad thing would piss me off more than anything, he doesn't sound like someone I would ever want to be friends with, even  even outside of gaming. Your going to have to be up front with him, and your probably going to lose a player, but I don't think that will be a bad thing.
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

Dampfish

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« Reply #2 on: <03-09-16/1256:57> »
Yeah, I've had bloodthirsty players like that in my group once or twice before, but that I can deal with as a GM. Just weave it into the narrative and send HTR or strike teams after them.

If it were completely up to me I would tell him that he's not in the group anymore. Him and I aren't friends outside the group so it wouldn't really matter to me, but as I mentioned one of our long-time players have to work with him the other days of the week (that's how he got invited in the first place) and I suspect that she'd never hear the end of it. So I don't really want to subject her to that.

And it would set a bad precedent if I started to kick people out that I feel would rub some of the other players the wrong way and maybe even make them leave, thereby tearing the group in half. So I'm very hesitant to do that.
"It's not my fault if you don't understand what I'm saying."

farothel

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« Reply #3 on: <03-09-16/1326:25> »
The phone thing bothers me too and it's something I've seen in my group as well (we rotate the GM duty, so sometimes it's when I'm GM, sometimes it's when I'm a player).  That you take a phone call is not really a problem for me (after all, it might be important and in our group, it has been in the past), but just surfing the net, that you can do while you are alone at home.

One of things you can do is stop repeating things when he was playing with his phone while you were explaining.  Just tell him that you just said what was happening and that he should pay attention, as everybody else pays attention when it is his turn.  He might not like it, but it's your right as GM to do the game as you want.  The same if he comes back and you're doing something with the other players.  Simply tell him 'wait, I'll come back to you in a moment' and then go on.  I know that assholes are not an endangered species, but he might actually get the point at some point.
"Magic can turn a frog into a prince. Science can turn a frog into a Ph.D. and you still have the frog you started with." Terry Pratchett
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Beta

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« Reply #4 on: <03-09-16/1408:46> »
First: my sympathies!  Sucks to have something you like go off track like this, especially when getting a good game gong is always challenging.

Second: I haven’t dealt with this situation, and obviously I’ve not been there to pick up the body language, tone, etc. from the various parties involved.  Despite that I’ll hazard some thoughts, in hopes that something is of use to you – but take this with a hefty pinch of disclaimers.  YMMV, no warranty expressed or implied, no actual racoons were involved in the creation of this post, etc.

And on to random internet advice:

-   Have you had this discussion with his co-worker?  It sounds to me like she is kind of the person this whole thing pivots on, and probably the person that knows him best.  Possibly she is just as frustrated and wishes she’d never let herself be convinced to invite him and is hoping that you have a solution … but possibly not.  If nothing else she might bring a little more insight about the guy.

-   Some groups play in a very focused manner, others are much more random and unstructured – they may not get a lot done, but they enjoy hanging out and getting at least some stuff done.  There is a possibility that he has previously played in a much less structured group than you have.  You could probably ask him that, and ask what he likes about different group styles.  Could be food for thought on both sides.

-   Free internet diagnosis time – extra-bonus disclaimer: you get what you pay for!  Sounds like the guy may be non-neurotypical.  i.e. ADHD, Aspergers, or something.  Where either he can’t stay focussed for long, or where he doesn’t read the body-language & tone clues to pick up on the unspoken feedback, and really doesn’t get how it makes others feel.  In other words, you may have a situation not so much of simple rudeness, but rather someone that struggles with their own behavior as much as others struggle with it.  In which case, sadly, it falls to those who have more mental flexibility to do a lot of the adapting.

-   Whether the previous point is correct or not (and frankly you’ll probably never know—and even if it is the case, he may never have been diagnosed), I’d suggest talking  to the guy (probably one-on-one, although maybe later on with some group follow-up), with the going in point being ‘how do we as a group deal with this’ rather than ‘here are your problems, deal with them.’  Yes this is a pain and more work for you, but it could pay off really well.  And often the techniques and habits that some people need, others end up benefiting from as well even if they don’t need them as much.

-   For example “As you know, ShadowRun takes quite a while to play through.  You get distracted a lot with the books or electronics, then miss what is going on, and we have to explain it again – and this makes the whole thing even longer.  I’d love if you could pay closer attention but I know that in a long evening everyone’s attention will wander sometimes, and some people’s will wander more and farther than others.  So what I want to know is what I can do to pull your attention back when you really need to be paying attention.”  That could be that he sits adjacent to you and you touch his shoulder to get his attention, it could be a quick “Gary, listen-up,” or whatever, but the key is getting his participation in the solution.  You are more apt to get a solution that works if he’s part of it (he’ll have a better idea of what works with him, and his buy in is key).  Alternatively you might then hear about how little interest he has in paying attention to the whole game, which could lead to a different conversation.

-   I’d try to make a list of the top three or so behaviors that are the most disruptive, then aim to find a solution for one every session or two, since it takes work on both sides to make the new behaviors a habit.  The solutions won’t be perfect, but simply by having even a partial solution it may lower his stress level, and hence reduce some of the behaviors
« Last Edit: <03-09-16/1412:21> by Beta »

Critias

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« Reply #5 on: <03-09-16/1630:39> »
Talk to him.

I don't mean to sound flippant, but there you go. 

adzling

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« Reply #6 on: <03-09-16/1927:21> »
I've had this happen before.

1). As Critias says is talk to him one on one (so he doesn't feel ganged up on) and let him know very unemotionally and straight forward what is causing problems.
2). Let him know if he wants to stay he'll need to change his ways.
3). Give him a deadline, and stick to it.

Every time I have run up against someone like this in the past (less than a handful of times thankfully) I had too boot them in the end, some sooner than others due to higher irritant factor.

Dampfish

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« Reply #7 on: <03-10-16/0255:08> »
*snip*

Yes, she and I have taken to discussing his behaviour after almost every gamesession lately and she has most definitely started to regret having invited him in the first place (she's even said as much). Although she agrees with me that he has shown some minor improvement when he's with the group over these past months (even if it's just a drop in the ocean compared to what's needed), but apparently he's behaving even worse at work since he joined us. Almost as if he's holding back and has to let it all out the next day. She's started throwing out ideas on how to deal with him, even going so far as to suggest things you'd do with a kindergartener (like, ring a bell when I want quiet, etc.) but they all seem very crude and I feel they would probably only exacerbate things.
I'm not really sure if he's got some sort of diagnosis or not, but you bring up a good point I guess. Although that begs the question if he is non-neurotypical if it's even possible for him to change his behaviour, and whether trying to help him do that is a lost cause or not...
Not to sound too heartless or anything.

*snip*
*snip, but basically "talk to the guy."*

We've tried talking to him, but as I mentioned it doesn't seem to take hold. I ran into him and the co-worker earlier than usual before a session once and the three of us discussed things as frankly as possible. But it only seemed to make a difference that one time, because the next week he was back to his usual old obnoxious self, unfortunately.
I tried talking to him myself one time before that, bringing up a few things that bothered me and suggesting he should be aware of them and try to do something about them, but then he just started to go on about how much he loved roleplaying and how I was trying to keep him from doing what he loved, etc. He's a real drama queen when he feels like it, and frankly I don't really know how to deal with that type of behaviour.

But perhaps I should give him an ultimatum and a deadline, as you suggested. It may seem like bullying (and again, that's not a line I feel very comfortable crossing) but maybe it's the approach he needs. It's hard to tell.

*snip*

I've started to ignore his constant questions of "What about me?" until I can get to him in a timely fashion, but as I mentioned above he can be a real drama queen when he doesn't immediately get what he wants and that's been a very tough balancing act.
"It's not my fault if you don't understand what I'm saying."

MijRai

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« Reply #8 on: <03-10-16/0314:10> »
If he's a drama queen, I suggest treating him exactly like the child he's emulating.  There's some local players I encounter in the open games (not Shadowrun) who've got issues with behavior/hygiene/what-have-you, and at this point I now resort to the options I use with children; I either tell them no in simple terms, ignore them until they fix themselves or actively pull them aside and explain exactly what they're doing wrong and the repercussions if they don't fix themselves (in that order of severity). 

One example is the guy half the gamers in the area I know call Scratchy.  If you take every negative physical stereotype of nerds/geeks out there, he fits.  Neckbeard, greasy, B-O, bad shave, other attributes he can't help having but just complete the look.  He got his nick-name from the multiple times we found him digging around in his pants at the table when he thought no-one was looking (I and the GM ended up sitting next to him most often).  Oh, and sniffing, don't forget that.  This was compounded by his habit of trying to snatch up your pencils/writing gear/papers/dice without asking. 
Scratchy was also extremely childish; he'd throw these little tantrums whenever the dice weren't on his side, or when he got his math wrong.  We caught him cheating a time or two and suspected a lot more.  He played this annoying, Mary Sue-esque honorable Tiefling Paladin of goodness, who tried to prostitute herself out to get a bad guy on our side (he rolled really badly and failed).  When really irritated, he'd throw dice.  Scratchy always tried to explain that they were stressed out or some other bull.  The GM took him aside in the middle of the game twice and spoke to him about his behavior on top of other communications (pre and post-game).  I took him aside when he literally hit someone with one of his dice while throwing one of his tantrums and flat-out told him I'd kick his ass to the curb if he kept up his behavior.  No-one stood against that, and the GM sided with me (he didn't see the die get thrown or hit someone, and he doesn't act on stuff he doesn't see himself).  The session after that, he told us he had 'stuff' come up and couldn't play with us any more.

When behavior hits a certain point, you need to draw a thick, deep line and tell them to pick a side. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Leevizer

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« Reply #9 on: <03-10-16/0356:32> »
I had a person like that in my group, and I really sympathize with you. He was thick as a brick about playing, would literally fall asleep at the table, read my comics or just not do anything when his character was not in the center of things, AND EVEN WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING HIS THING, HE'D JUST FALL ASLEEP. Literally, there was a run where they had to infiltrate a corp facility, so what does out dwarf sniper/infiltrator sammie do? Well, nothing, since during the "ok, what do we do?" negotiation between players, this player follows for a moment and then dozes off.

He had not bothered to learn the rules, his attempts at being sneaky/tricky were obvious at best and his solution to every problem was "let's shoot the".

He wanted really badly to GM so, because I was bored of being the GM and wanted for him to actually do something with his life tried to teach him to GM... And his runs were rather interesting, to say the least).

He was really a sad case, but our solution was to just allow him to be with us out of pity, mostly. Honestly, we tried to take it with humour because some of the things he did were hilarious, atleast in hindsight. At first they upset us but we learned to just kinda... Laugh at him, and he was too thick to realize it and thus we all had a good time.

If things hadn't gone that well and he doesn't take direct advice, you need to draw the line. "I spend hours of my free time creating scenarios and then hours running them for you guys. If you can't be bothered to focus for the four hours we play, then I don't want to play with you" is a pretty good ultimatum.

Lorebane24

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« Reply #10 on: <03-10-16/0422:13> »
Hire some shadowrunners to black bag him.
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belaran

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« Reply #11 on: <03-10-16/0927:41> »
As nobody mentioned that here, do check how the rest of the group feels about him. Because if you end up having to give him some though love (which seems unavoidable reading this thread), the rest of the group do need to act united (not ganging up , but not jumping to his rescue either).

And if he tries to use them as a defense ("But, Bob is OK when I do that", Bob needs to say "No, I'm not", and so on...).

Oh, and there is the coward way too: either stop inviting him and just schedulded the game when you know he can't come. Won't fix anything, but he might get the hint.

adzling

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« Reply #12 on: <03-10-16/1039:35> »
Considering you have talked to him a few times and the issues persist it's time to cut bait and let him go.

Do you really want him ruining everyone else's fun until the whole group falls apart?

Beta

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« Reply #13 on: <03-10-16/1041:03> »
A few more questions & thoughts:

-   He obviously has negatives, but does he also bring any positives to the group?  (and if not, OK then, that might make your decision easier … )

-   I don’t know what your group does for tracking initiative, but some groups have a player track that chart just to reduce the number of things the GM has to worry about it.  You could always try this with him, see if it keeps him more engaged at least during those times when initiative matters – and if the extra responsibility/spotlight helps reduce some of the other behaviors. (if not, well, you’ve learned what sort of strategy doesn’t work).

-   Do remember that most people can’t suppress bad habits through willpower alone for any length of time, generally we as a species need to substitute other, better, habits for the bad ones.  So ‘do better’ is seldom an effective intervention.

-   The next time any of you are thinking of making a character with low charisma and low etiquette, remember this guy ….

-   Does he have any of the rule books?  Do you trust him enough to loan him some of yours?  May help with the knowing the rules and looking things up during the game part, but I do understand not wanting to loan expensive books to someone who may have self-discipline problems.

-   Maybe you could sit down with him one-on-one at some point (even over the phone or by email might work) and basically say “Hey, now that you’ve been with the group for a while, I’d love to get your feedback about how our sessions go.  What do you like, what do you think that I as a GM and the group as a whole could do better?  Are there things that other groups you have played with did that you might suggest we look at?”  It might give you some interesting insight into how he sees things, and we can all benefit from feedback some of the time.  And incorporating some of his feedback might strengthen your case for him also making changes in how he does things (the group is willing to bend to meet him, not totally asking it to go the other way)

Whatever you do, good luck with handling this tough situation.

Shaidar

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« Reply #14 on: <05-19-16/2205:14> »
[...]
-   Free internet diagnosis time – extra-bonus disclaimer: you get what you pay for!  Sounds like the guy may be non-neurotypical.  i.e. ADHD, Aspergers, or something.  Where either he can’t stay focussed for long, or where he doesn’t read the body-language & tone clues to pick up on the unspoken feedback, and really doesn’t get how it makes others feel.  In other words, you may have a situation not so much of simple rudeness, but rather someone that struggles with their own behavior as much as others struggle with it.  In which case, sadly, it falls to those who have more mental flexibility to do a lot of the adapting.
[...]

Here's some low-down on non-neurotypical from a diagnosed Aspie. With Aspies at least social graces and understanding usually lags behind a person's chronological age, sometimes halting entirely in an individual's teen years.

One of the methods used by educators to help Aspies interact easier with neurotypicals (the rest of humanity) is Role-playing. Specific scenarios many hundreds of times for each specific situation. If social interaction isn't taught to an Aspie as if it were math or science then it will never sink in. All language which is non-specific or has ideas requiring personal definitions (good/bad, right/wrong) will often not  appear to be understood because the relevant individuals won't likely have similar definitions, use only Websters definitions when crafting your thoughts prior to attempting communication.

As much as 80% of human communication is NOT contained in the words we speak, this is the "body language & tone clues". Many Aspies have not Rosetta Stone for this sizable portion of the human experience which is why a saying has come into existence. "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus and Aspies are from Vulcan." Written forms of communication remove these unknown from the equation which is why many companies are having better success incorporating Aspies into their workforce by issuing instructions via e-mail as opposed to verbally.

Some methods to get through to an Aspie:
  • Be VERY specific and clear about expected behavior. Try to include who, what, where, when, why, and how; otherwise, the individual won't know if they've performed correctly.
  • It will be necessary to confront each individual behavior many times before any progress will stick. However, only focusing on a single behavior at a time can shorten the time somewhat.
  • Written communications can remove much of the emotional/social noise from the situation. Providing what the military calls "After Action Reports" to check-in with everyone after gaming sessions could go a long way to adding concrete reference which may improve relations.