[Zar]

I'm sure the subject is being passed around at Catalyst and I'd like to get this request buzzing around in the right ears before it gets too far.   Please make crunch the Priority over fluff and make it all work correctly.  In other words, have all the freelance developers actually talk to each other and work out the balance between the systems.  There are too many parts of this game that are confusing or just don't seem to work.   All this stuff about rewriting how 5e Technomancers work has gotten me thinking that almost every part of this game needs to be rewritten with these issues in mind.  People play Shadowrun because they like a complex game system that encompasses technology, magic, and intrigue.   I think 5e got the intrigue right but fails on the other two in many ways.  Instead of making bandaid books to fix the problems in core please work it out before hand.  Do a beta !  I'd gladly pay for a beta rules book if it would make for a much better game in the long run.

Some of the fluff is great.  Some of it I ignore.  But frankly I don't need more fluff.  What I need is a game where we don't have to halt the session to figure out how something works.  Or worse, to have a rigger spend all their resources buying drones but have them destroyed by small arms in a single session.  How about before you put martial arts into print, you actually use it in a run.  How about a Martial Artist with 30 karma in jujitsu?  They look great in the book but wind up coming up short in ability during game play.  Enchanting?  Ugh.  Total waste of so many pages.  Come to the forums, ask the players and GMs how to make this game better instead of firing and forgetting each book.  Do PDFs first.  Let us vet it out before you send it to print.    Catalyst has their hands on a wonderful game but it can be so much better if  more effort is put into balance and making sure the crunch works properly.

[Serbitar]

I am still wondering why there is no widely used open source roleplaying system. Most of the time the community is better than the developers in creating a rule system.

[Jack_Spade]

Nope,
it's way easier to criticize than to create. A lot of people underestimate how hard it is to come up with a good text basis.

That said:
One thing I wished for SR 6e: Consistent term usage or "keywords".
D&D4e wasn't a very good system in my opinion, but it did that right at least: It defined certain terms and build from there.
If an object had the "fire" keyword you knew it did "fire" damage, triggered special abilities that had "fire" in their description and was resisted by things with "fire" immunity.

At the moment in SR 5 different writers will use different terms to describe the same things and same terms to describe different things. (Just look at the recent "Unarmed Attack" discussion)

A greater emphasis on consistency of terms would remedy a lot of problems - including how to differentiate between crunch and fluff.

[celondon]

Zar, I love that you made this post, but I wouldn't hold out much hope. Why? Well, the Line Producer for Shadowrun is obviously too busy with other responsibilities to manage this line properly. Look at the lack of Errata for SR while Battletech gets, if not timely, a pretty decent errata pass on each product. Clearly, the company wants quality to be high, but for whatever reason, SR consistently falls below the mark and the issues do not get corrected via errata. My conclusion as to why has already been stated -- it's not incompetence or malfeasance, it's that the person responsible for it is spread too thin.

[All4BigGuns]

I am still wondering why there is no widely used open source roleplaying system. Most of the time the community is better than the developers in creating a rule system.

IMNSHO this comment is indicative of the biggest problem with the modern gaming community. Gamers these days think (falsely) that they know more than the professionals and proceed to issue their insults disguised as criticisms with that mentality.

[Whiskeyjack]

I am still wondering why there is no widely used open source roleplaying system. Most of the time the community is better than the developers in creating a rule system.

IMNSHO this comment is indicative of the biggest problem with the modern gaming community. Gamers these days think (falsely) that they know more than the professionals and proceed to issue their insults disguised as criticisms with that mentality.

The community may not be better at writing rules, but I think it's fairly obvious that it's better at figuring what's wonky, vague, broken, or inconsistent than the writers are.

[farothel]

It's kinda logical that the community knows what's not working.  There are like what, 10-15 developers working on the products and it's play-tested with about double that amount of people, whereas we are with thousands of people all playing slightly differently.  So imbalances will be much quicker found when the product is out on the market than while play-testing.

And what one group thinks is broken, another group finds perfect, depending on play style.  Of course, if almost everybody thinks something is broken, there's a good chance it is.

[Serbitar]

I am still wondering why there is no widely used open source roleplaying system. Most of the time the community is better than the developers in creating a rule system.

IMNSHO this comment is indicative of the biggest problem with the modern gaming community. Gamers these days think (falsely) that they know more than the professionals and proceed to issue their insults disguised as criticisms with that mentality.

I was one of these "professionals"  once. So I  know what I am talking about.

[All4BigGuns]

Of course, if almost everybody thinks something is broken, there's a good chance it is.

Actually, this is solidly in Bandwagon Fallacy territory, especially since most such gripes are found on forums such as this and social media where most of the posters are generally polarized in a particular direction.

[jim1701]

I am still wondering why there is no widely used open source roleplaying system. Most of the time the community is better than the developers in creating a rule system.

IMNSHO this comment is indicative of the biggest problem with the modern gaming community. Gamers these days think (falsely) that they know more than the professionals and proceed to issue their insults disguised as criticisms with that mentality.

The community may not be better at writing rules, but I think it's fairly obvious that it's better at figuring what's wonky, vague, broken, or inconsistent than the writers are.

Agreed, that's why beta testing is a thing.

As far as 6th edition is concerned I think if things are to be different there will have to be a change in leadership for the dev team.  Regardless of how you feel about how well things work in 5th edition you can't deny that errata is just not a priority for the current leadership.

[Whiskeyjack]

Of course, if almost everybody thinks something is broken, there's a good chance it is.

Actually, this is solidly in Bandwagon Fallacy territory, especially since most such gripes are found on forums such as this and social media where most of the posters are generally polarized in a particular direction.

Because the writers are always right and perfect and always playtest things sufficiently and never put out bad or inconsistent products and always communicate with each other perfectly, right? Yeah ok

There are systems much better managed than this one where the writers still release errata due to problems they can't see on the front end for one reason or another or which internal playtesting misses due to its particular assumptions.

The fact that a bunch of people not only agree but can prove issues actually using the game systems means there's data to investigate, not just angry anecdotes. And the fact that people agree doesn't inherently make them wrong or part of a wrong herd mentality.

[Mirikon]

I am still wondering why there is no widely used open source roleplaying system. Most of the time the community is better than the developers in creating a rule system.

There is. Its called the D20 system, and there is a lovely SRD for it and everything. Problem is, it is based primarily on fantasy games.

As for other genres, you start going into niches and areas where mechanics start supporting specific settings and world views, such as the way Shadowrun interplays man, machine, and magic, or the way Vampire: The Masquerade promotes a certain style game. The most open games, other than 'quasi-freeform' (pure handwavium) systems like the Window, would be things like GURPS, Hero System, or Mutants & Masterminds, which have basic rules that can be adapted to many different settings, but trying to hammer out Shadowrun's Matrix in Champions would be a major headache.

Of course, you're more than welcome to do the work yourself. But most likely you, like me and many others, don't have that kind of free time and energy to devote to writing up a game system from scratch.

[Serbitar]

I am still wondering why there is no widely used open source roleplaying system. Most of the time the community is better than the developers in creating a rule system.

Of course, you're more than welcome to do the work yourself. But most likely you, like me and many others, don't have that kind of free time and energy to devote to writing up a game system from scratch.

Well, I did (or am well into doing right now. Although my ruleset is maybe too ambitious, and niche. I myself of course think it is brilliant . . .).
My question is more like this:

With the tools the internet gives you, like Wikis and other collaborative tools, you could create a ruleset that is constantly updated and evolving. This is of course completely anti-capitalistic, as it defies any release cycles and such. But nobody does it. Why? There are enough open source programming projects, but no noticeable RPG ones I can think of (which may be because of my own ignorance).

For me it seems like people only think something is good if it costs money. Which, in the case of RPGs is exactly the problem  (being sold by a coporation in release cycles with profit in mind)  that prevents it from being much better (constantly updated digital rulesets, that benefit from efforts of the whole community).

[Zar]

I didn't really mean to insult catalyst or the people who created 5e.  I also don't meant to lament the lack of errata since that won't give Catalyst any revenue.  But I do know that if they continue to want use the IP they have to put out a 6th eventually and just want them to regroup and review to make things better for the game. 

[Whiskeyjack]

I will lament the lack of errata. You should care about the quality of your product enough to fix the problems with it. Otherwise you burn through all your good will.