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A plea to 6e Designers

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NoxMortem

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« Reply #60 on: <04-04-16/0923:56> »
I also would like to add my wishlist. I don't add it because I think 5e is broken by any means but because I am 100% sure there will be a 6th edition sooner or later as it is just a economic reasonable step to take and you can't add to one rule system forever and rules just sell better than fluff books. It could be soon from now it could be far from now and I don't want to speculate about that but I know there are many people working for CGL beeing active in the forum and therefore I hope to reach some of them which will carry into the 6th edition:
  • Please don't copy and paste anymore. Write the book from scratch. Don't get me wrong, this does not mean the rules and the system or the fluff has to be changed but the amount of errors and unclearness from copy left overs fromt he 4th edition is pretty high and subtle changes always lead to discussion and stuff like indirect area spells/grenades and direct melee spells are just unecessary more complicate than they need to be.
  • Streamline and if you do, do it right. And again, do not get me wrong, I don't mean that 5th edition is not streamlined in some ways or everything was done wrong there. What I want to say is, that for examples if TMs rely on mechanisms similar to those of mages, then I think it can't be good that there are subtle and fine differences like the -2 concentration penalty one has and the other has not. From a balance point of view neither would be broken if it would be the same as the other but such subtle differences always create rule discussions and are a pain in the ass
  • Rethink structure. For everything that is not a campaign book where the rules are meant to be only read by the GM please, please, please if something comes up in one chapter, keep all the rules there. The worst example for this is street magic where the texts and rules for adept ways are distributed over 3! chapters. It would have been so much better if there would have been one (sub-)chapter "adept ways" and then everything about ways would be there
  • Please spread responsibilities more. I get that every good project needs this one person making final calls and that is important and great but I wished that freelancers which invest a lot of time writing some rule chapters and think those stuff through also should be the person responsible for those rules. It is a bit sad how often freelancers write here or there what they had in mind and very often that would have been a better idea than what made it into the rulebook. Trust your freelancers more. You pay them for a job and if they don't deliver it might be better to look for different writers (or really make them read and understand the rules until they deliver the quality you want them to deliver) but those you trust, trust them more.
  • Be more honest and clear to your customers. If there is no errata/faq planned anymore, then don't simply stop talking about it. Most people here know, that beeing a RPG-author does not pay that well and that shadowrun is not the only project Jason M. Hardy is responsible for and that customer support is really hard to monetize. If there is no way to maintain an official errata/faq just admit it. It could be no one wants to pay for it or no one wants to do it because it might be a boring job and that is fine. We don't have a right to get any of these, but I am always saddened if we as customers are left in the unclear for something like that and if those stuff stays unclear for years it becomes horrible. A good example are the missions FAQs which contain a lot of unofficial rulings and corrections, many of them which might possibly come or not come as some sort of errata but the fact people have to discuss how "official" or "unofficial" the missions FAQ rulings are outside of the missions is makes me sad, as the only reason people want some of those to be official is because there is no other document to rely on.
  • Less mechanisms. Shadowrun has a really solid and diverse set of possible tests. We have success tests, we have extended tests, teamwork tests, opposed trests and thresholds/intervals. Use them more often and think twice before you want to add a new rule. If it could be done with one of those that is almost always a better decision.
  • If realism clearly can not be achieved, don't try to force it. In shadowrun almost everything is possible. We got magic, augmentations, artifacts and crazy stuff like metaplanar stuff. If something like the speed table just looks really stupid on the first look because the attribute can raise faster than the real speed is intented to, it might be better to not give numbers for those as well.
  • Work together as a team. Too often it looks like the one hand does not know what the other does, especially when we look at pdf's vs books, or german vs english versions or an earlier chapter vs a later chapter. For example some people here complain that some players refer to german rulebooks and that they are "different" than english rules. I really wished this thinking would stop some day, but for that it would be necessary that the major publishers are really visibly working together. I as a person not involved in the process obviously can not know how it really is, but I wished shadowrun was considered a single game with a single version and that would require a clear working together between both companies. And the same is true for only the CGL team as well (earlier chapters vs later chapters or pdf authors vs book authors).
« Last Edit: <04-04-16/1106:38> by NoxMortem »

Zar

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« Reply #61 on: <04-04-16/1015:04> »
I'd be happy with a revised 5e set of books with everything rebalanced and revised but 6e is probably more profitable.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #62 on: <04-04-16/1124:31> »
Seeing if IAs, decker and technos have with the same cost the same (karma, nuyens, fading) chance with different tricks
Seeing if gunslinger and mage have with the same cost the same (karma, nuyens, fading) chance with different tricks
Seeing if technos and mage have with the same cost (karma, nuyens, fading) the same chance with different tricks (and make the mage cannot do thing that are matrix revealant or please upgrade capacities of technos...)
Seeing if adept and streetsam have with the same cost (karma, nuyens, fading?) the same chance with different tricks
Seeing if rigger, dronomancers and critter trainer/master have with the same cost (karma, nuyens, fading) the same chance with different tricks
and so on

Are you seriously asking for SR to become bland and boring with all the character types being just dull reskins of everything else? That's what this really looks like because that's the only way what you ask for can be done.
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Sipowitz

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« Reply #63 on: <04-04-16/1125:56> »
@MijRai you may not have been, but there have in the past been plenty of insults thrown at freelancers, line producers and others at CGL.
You are downplaying the whole factions within factions aspect of the grand soap opera that Shadowrun has become.

I wish for 6e to scrap the current game system and fluff and hit the biggest reset button in RPG history.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #64 on: <04-04-16/1132:29> »
I wish for 6e to scrap the current game system and fluff and hit the biggest reset button in RPG history.

The system is fine. The "fluff" could definitely use a reset though. One doesn't need massive amounts of "fluff" which clogs and takes up needed space in the rules sources, and one doesn't need the fine details of the setting spoon fed to them, just the general broad strokes.
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Sipowitz

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« Reply #65 on: <04-04-16/1231:49> »
The system is fine. The "fluff" could definitely use a reset though. One doesn't need massive amounts of "fluff" which clogs and takes up needed space in the rules sources, and one doesn't need the fine details of the setting spoon fed to them, just the general broad strokes.
I find the system has too many holdovers from previous editions, making for clunky mismanaged mechanics

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #66 on: <04-04-16/1256:22> »
Shadowrun should never have it's fluff reset. Then we'd end up with the new World of Darkness, where they bring over the themes with none of the lore. SR's history is honestly what makes it great.

I also can't see any mechanics system that'd work well enough to simulate all the insane character options while making the choices feel meaningful other than what we already got.

Sipowitz

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« Reply #67 on: <04-04-16/1331:40> »
S'alright you are allowed to have a wrong opinion from time to time.   8)

Mirikon

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« Reply #68 on: <04-04-16/1430:04> »
Shadowrun should never have it's fluff reset. Then we'd end up with the new World of Darkness, where they bring over the themes with none of the lore. SR's history is honestly what makes it great.

I also can't see any mechanics system that'd work well enough to simulate all the insane character options while making the choices feel meaningful other than what we already got.
Fully agree on the fluff. The fluff is what makes Shadowrun great, aside from (and on quite a few occasions, in spite of) the rules system. I would say, however, that switching to point buy, and getting rid of the escalating costs per rank, would allow people to make choices that are meaningful, and yet still be able to have noticable improvement in their characters over the life of an average game.
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Reaver

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« Reply #69 on: <04-04-16/1519:43> »
Fuck, I'm old.

Not just in body, but as a "gamer". I remember when I first got into roleplaying games, it was the winter of 1981 and my first game system was the classic DnD basic "red Box" set. And surprisingly it was recommended to me by my 3rd grade teacher, through my parents, as a way to get my reading and math skills up. (And, if you think I have bad grammar now.... well just imagine! Read on.) And I have to say, it worked. I was hooked, learning to play these games required reading and understanding the rules, math as involved in figuring out if you succeeded or not.... by the end of the school year, I went from basically failing in both reading and math to very strong marks. By the end of 1983, I was a the top of my class (and lets be real here, this is grade 5... you still know shit for shit :P)

But for me, it was more then just the numbers on the page, and the words, it was the worlds that those numbers and words unlocked. The gleaming knights, and castles, the giant dragons and horrible trolls. IT was the fact that you got to be not only someone else, but the HERO! You name the game system from 1985 to 1990 and I either played it, read it, or owned it. From the transformable mecha of Robotech, to the mysteries of Dark Conspiracies , from the rules light Pathfinder: tales of Travel , to the rules intensive Spy Games .

And, naturally I right there when computers and the first RPG games where coming around (MUDs). Naturally I bought and played every single Gold and Silver Box SGI game ever made :P (And if you don't know what those are, you are NOT a true Gamer!!! :D) Only my accountant knows how much I spent on computer game RPG genre over the years..... $10,000? $30,000? All I know is I have shoe boxes filled with 5.25' floppies..... and they are all store bought games. And I have equal boxes of 3.5' floppies, and several boxes of CDs/DVD... and thanks to Steam, over 100 games in my library... (and thank God for the new return policy! or it would be much higher!)

But we are getting off track.....

Back then, when there was an error or a bug, regardless of the media, you had no recourse. If you bought the Gold Box Pools of Radiance and killed the wizard BEFORE the elemental, you got a corrupted hard dive (SERIOUSLY!!). There was no internet to get a "patch" from, there was no "mail in" option. All there was, was a article in a games magazine from an other publisher, that you had to buy, in order to find this out... Usually several months after the game was released.

If you read a rule in a book that didn't make sense, there was no internet, or email to ask the developers, there was no FAQ departments at all. You could write to them at their publishing house, and hope to get a response of course. Not that I ever got a single response from any of the developers I wrote questions to. Not FASA, not TSR, not SJG, not Palladium, not White Wolf, not GDW. Not even when I included a self addressed, postage paid envelope.

Nope, if you wanted answers, you turned to the 'experts' in magazines like Dragon and other war gaming journals for your answers. Heck, that is how many of these publications got their start! By publishing 'Unofficial' answers to the problems the communities where having. And as they gained subscribers, they gained pull with the gaming industry, going from 'Unofficial' answers to 'official' answers,, to even offering expanded and optional rules for various game systems. Again, if you are an 'older skool' gamer like me, you'll remember when Dragon used to publish all sorts of optional character classes and rules for AD&D....


And along comes the internet.... And shakes things up.

At first, it was just fan made sites hosting fan made content. Then the developers got in on it....
Finally, a low cost effective way for developers to offer up their own errata and fixes to problems without undue costs of completely printing their own magazines! Soon, every major developer that could afford to was online hosting their own forums (HI!! <waves>) and errata sections. Places where their customers could come and get a direct answer to their questions without the need or the expense of a middle man (gaming mag).
With emails, people could get their responses in days instead of months or weeks!!

And... It all went to hell in a handbasket.
The Developers were not ready for the influx that the new technology allowed, and its exponential growth meant they couldn't keep up. What went from a few dozen snail mail letters a month exploded into tens of thousands of emails a day! (Remember folks, we are talking the start here, not last week.....) Granted, many of these emails where 'junk' *thanks to the proliferation of spam mail in the early days. Something that gets filtered out almost automatically nowadays) but it also meant that their assumptions on manpower where dangerously off. instead of just one or two people answering questions, now they ended up with an entire department! (near the end days of TSR, they said their estimates where a department of 30 people to answer questions with a 72 hour turn around!).

What had looked like was going to be an "Epic Win" for customer satisfaction in war gaming, quickly turned into a sinking ship for many companies as the man power required to run their "Q and A" departments threatened to outstrip their budgets! Some companies tied the "paid Q and A" approach, arguing that the costs of such a service outstripped their monthly revenues. Not that that answer went over well... and the "Paid QnA" died out.

Some companies, have managed to find a model that worked for them for a time....


And along came Social Media......

And what can I say for THIS hot stinking shit pile of a mess? Well, I think it speaks volumes when the brightest and most creative minds of our generation are leaving Social Media in DROVES, leaving it to literally, the unwashed, uneducated masses..... (what's your share price NOW twitter??? Thank God I never bought stock)....
The rotting carcass that is social media is an other reason many companies are actually winding down their 'net interaction' behind automated responses and 'dead air'... They just can't win. No matter what they do, and what they say, it is never enough, and is always used against them in the end. Its a lesson companies have been slow to learn, but are quick to adopt. What, thanks to Social Media wonderful little 'trends" like Mizzou where they want to REVOKE freedom of speech and re-adopt SEGREGATION (you know, the very thing many people died to end back in the 50s and 60s, and something that is protected in the constitution.) or the Boaty McBoatface naming, or even just the public shaming of someone's life.... Social Media has proven to NOT be the friend of companies or even it's users....


FFS, just look at the first 5 pages of THIS thread! there are about a dozen posters, and TWO DOZEN different 'solutions' to the 'problem' !! Even among the small sample size of a single thread you can't reach a consensus....
I dare many of you guys who came here after the release of 5e to go back a few dozen pages and actually read some of the threads and posts... FROM DAY ONE of release, the writers, editors and developers have been attacked. Some attacked with consideration and honesty, pointing out small errors and omissions, but the vast majority just piled on shit and venom. And at first, we DID hear from the developers and editors.

And every time we DID hear from an editor or a developer... the venom and shite got flung faster and harder then before......


And now here we are, 3 years later.
Not an editor in sight on the forums.
Not a developer in sight on the forums.
Freelancers, once prolific on the forums, a rare find....



You want to know why? Might I suggest you look in the Mirror? If day in and day out you had dozens to hundreds of people saying "Fuck you! you Fucking suck! You're a fucking idiot! You can't do your job! You're a waste of space! You should be fired! You're a loser!!" How long until YOU quit responding?

IMO This Community is getting EXACTLY what it deserves. Silence...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #70 on: <04-04-16/1524:22> »
I hate build point. There are too many "trap" options. It's not easy for new players and it just requires too much math that it forces players to use a program like chummer or herolabs.

Really, I don't even understand the point of build point chargen. It's difficult to use, requires a lot of math, and isn't consistent with the game system. At least with priority it's quicker and simpler. And karma gen makes the most sense as it's just using the natural progression mechanics.

I really think core for SR6 needs less options. Stick with priority. Also use the gear packs instead of individual gear, like in Run Faster. Then in the gear book, have everything broken out into it's individual components for people that want something more granular for gear. Have the priority broken out into it's karma cost components for more granularity again for the advance character option book.

Then release all the expanded rule books, like magic, cyberware, the matrix, and rigging. Possibly break the magic book into two books, because there seems to be too much magic content in Street Grimoire.

Mirikon

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« Reply #71 on: <04-04-16/1754:07> »
Well, DeathStrobe, it would be even simpler if they put in a class and level system, like in D&D. But 'simple' isn't always a good thing. There's a reason why only kids use lanes with the bumpers in them at the bowling alley, and why the 'special' and 'simple' kids aren't in the same class as everyone else at school.

Seriously, though, simple only works when you're doing a choice of A, B, or C, like a Choose Your Own Adventure book. When you start wanting to do things that aren't in those narrow options, you need complexity. And point buy provides that, without going into insane numbers of tables like, say, Heroes Unlimited, or FASERIP. A point buy type chargen process allows for flexibility, allowing people to play what they want, while still keeping them on an even keel (or at least making sure that anyone who tries to be too tough in one area will have glaring weaknesses in others). There's a reason why most systems that are designed for multigenre play have some form of point buy. In 4th edition, I could easily make an Elf Combat Mage, a Troll Samurai, a Human Hacker, an AI Face, and a Dwarf Rigger, and have them all be on about the same keel. I could go from simple concepts to crazy out there things.

When you keep things 'simple', it means that, in the end, it will be like World of Warcraft, where every high level Warrior is going to have about the same stats, about the same gear, about the same build, and about the same playstyle, because that's what it takes to 'win'. Complexity opens the door for new play styles, new paths to follow, and new ways of achieving objectives.

But you're right that in 4E point buy ran into a wall when it came to advancement, because of the cumbersome sacred cow that is karma and increasing costs per rank, that actively penalize people for improving the things they're good at. Which is why no other major system that includes a point based XP system works that way, because the designers understand that improving your character is part of the fun of the game, and taking 3-5 modules-worth of XP to initiate (and needing a whole lot more to actually raise your magic) puts a major damper on people's enthusiasm, which is part of the reason I've never seen a game go past 50 karma.

As for math? At least until you get into buying gear, there really isn't more than basic math, even in 4E's point buy. X rank x Y cost/per = Z cost. Add up the cost for the section (abilities, skills, etc.), and then subtract the sections from 400 to see how many points you have left. You LITERALLY had harder problems than this in your high school Algebra class.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #72 on: <04-04-16/1759:20> »
Increasing costs per skill rank isn't necessarily bad, but the usage of multipliers is. That's why I keep suggesting skills costing an amount of experience (can even still call it Karma) equal to the rank one is going to (example- Going from 5 ranks to 6 ranks would cost 6 Experience/Karma/whatever-you-call-it). Keeping the multiplier on attributes wouldn't be too bad, but by going to this cost scheme for skills, that multiplier could go to 4 instead of 5.

As for math? At least until you get into buying gear, there really isn't more than basic math, even in 4E's point buy. X rank x Y cost/per = Z cost. Add up the cost for the section (abilities, skills, etc.), and then subtract the sections from 400 to see how many points you have left. You LITERALLY had harder problems than this in your high school Algebra class.

Add to this the fact that with a good point-buy system, you can go ahead and get the gear you want FIRST to ensure you have what you need and get the part that takes the most time out of the way before getting into the rest.
« Last Edit: <04-04-16/1802:48> by All4BigGuns »
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DeathStrobe

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« Reply #73 on: <04-04-16/1817:21> »
The WOW analogy is flawed as winning in Shadowrun can be done from a lot more angles. And it's not about creating the most munchkined character, it's about making concepts viable.

All those archetypes you listed can be done with priority. I've found with build points people either make characters that are good at a few things and straight up immune to aspects of the game, or hyper specialized and are only good at one thing at the cost of everything else. And technically there is nothing wrong with that, other than the immunity part. I hate how people cheese the Matrix.

The problem with progression in Shadowrun is the game does attempt to do some simulation work and that runner's start off REALLY powerful. Getting rating 12 in a skill is a big investment of karma and time. But if everyone was rocking 12 skill then what makes Street Legends and Elite Corp Forces special? The mechanics help reinforce the setting. Game mechanics wise, 1 dice isn't a big deal when you're already rolling 12+. But because the way SR is set up, that's kind of how it has to be. It's not like D&D where power levels have huge spikes every time you level. Its slow growth to help simulate the world. I'd also like character growth to be meaningful, but at the same time I also want bad asses to remain badasses. So I can live with the higher costs for the next rank. Because that makes it feel realistic.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #74 on: <04-04-16/1822:18> »
The PCs should be those in a setting (just not those named by the book authors) that reach that level of being Street Legend. Inordinately high costs of advancement prevents this.
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