[Senko]

I've been playing with life modules recently and it's possible to get a lot of languages at different ranks 1-6. Now I understand mechanically how they work but another thread got me curious how people would describe the various ranks in general terms. What rank is hello, goodbye, where's the hotel, what rank is basic conversation when are you "fluent" or at least able to manage general living situations. Conversation, reading road signs, asking how someone's day was and so on? How would you classify it?

1: Basic tourist stuff.
2-3: Simple conversation and signs.
4-5: Fluent enough for day to day living.
6+: complex discussions about scientific topics.

[Tarislar]

Interesting question.

I think I'd refer to the "Knowledge Skills"  Threshold table on pg. 149 CRB.

1-General Knowledge
2-Detailed Knowledge
4-Intricate Knowledge
6-Obscure Knowledge

So if those are the threshold of hits to know something lets put that into the same terms of discussing something.

1 Hit = 3 Dice, so Level-1 Skill + Average Intuition = 4 Dice.  So basic general Hello, Please, Thank you, General Knowledge

2 Hits = 6 Dice = Detailed Knowledge = Directions, Conversations, Where is the bathroom,  what does the street sign say.
Now your looking at Level 3 skill w/ 3 Int.

4 Hits = 12 Dice = Intricate Knowledge = Full On conversation able to discuss specific things, Intricate details, the kind of stuff you can debate about.
Above average Intuition-4 & Level-8 Skill.

6-Hits = 18 Dice = Detailed scientific topics = 6 Intuition + 12 Language Skill.   Which seems about right to discuss something like Theoretical Physics in a Non-Native language.

I'd say that 3 Hits is actually the area of "Fluent" since that is somewhere between Detailed & Intricate.
Where you can do a lot of things but maybe not everything.  This will get you the "day to day" living you mentioned.
So for me that would be Skill-5 + Int-4 for 9 dice.

[Lorebane24]

The guideline I generally use in my games....

1 - You know those people who studied a language in high school, passed the class, then never used it again?  This is what that rank more or less represents to me.

2 - Survival level.  You know basic vocabulary and sentence structures, and probably struggle to understand the spoken language.  You can introduce yourself, tell people what you do for a living, and you can perform extremely basic daily functions like ordering common dishes in a restaurant or telling a taxi where you want to go.  You'd need assistance if you wanted to do anything more complicated than that, such as opening a bank account or giving detailed directions.

3 - Conversant.  You can carry on common conversations in the language, but won't be capable of discussing moderately technical or abstract issues.

4 - Foreigner Fluent.  Assuming your accent isn't shit, you can get through daily interactions with people, and it might be weeks or months before you got into a situation that would shed light on your blanks of knowledge.  This is the level of many functional but poorly educated native speakers.

5 - Highly Fluent.  You can do basically anything a native speaker can.  Your only barrier in language is specialized terminology that would also stand in the way of a native speaker not versed in the relevant field.

6 - Your knowledge of the language is such that you probably understand it better than native speakers do, easily calling to the fore knowledge of grammar structures that native speakers forgot in elementary school.  You have an immense working lexicon in the language, and may be regarded as having an uncommon talent for expressing yourself.

[Whiskeyjack]

Mmm, it's a bit tricky, because even someone with a 1 can have high INT and gear support, and speak really fluently.

[Senko]

So probably better to do as suggested here and look at total picture. It doesn't matter if you have rank 1 language or rank 13 it's the total die polls and what you can buy that counts. If you can reliably buy 3-4 hits I.e. 9-12 dice and have 3-4 ranks in the skill your fluent enough to get buy in day to day situations. If you have 9-12 dice and 1 rank you can understand most things but have a horrible  accent mix up sentence structure and have trouble making yourself understood. Since ranks in the language affects your limit for diplomacy, negotiation and the like.

[farothel]

So probably better to do as suggested here and look at total picture. It doesn't matter if you have rank 1 language or rank 13 it's the total die polls and what you can buy that counts. If you can reliably buy 3-4 hits I.e. 9-12 dice and have 3-4 ranks in the skill your fluent enough to get buy in day to day situations. If you have 9-12 dice and 1 rank you can understand most things but have a horrible  accent mix up sentence structure and have trouble making yourself understood. Since ranks in the language affects your limit for diplomacy, negotiation and the like.

I would agree with this.  high ranks decide how fluent you are if you have to speak the language, whereas total number of dice would be a indication on how good you understand the language.  This means that someone with high ranks will also have a reasonable number of dice to understand the language, even with average attribute, while someone with low ranks in the skill and high attribute has a good passive knowledge, but can't speak it very well.

[Tecumseh]

To Whiskeyjack's point, I'm not sure I love the idea that someone with INT 6 + Language 1 would understand or speak the language better than someone with INT 3 + Language 3.

I generally like the linked Attribute+Skill system, but for languages I could be persuaded to use an approach similar to Senko's or Lorebane's, where the skill ranks are more important than the linked attribute.

[Whiskeyjack]

To Whiskeyjack's point, I'm not sure I love the idea that someone with INT 6 + Language 1 would understand or speak the language better than someone with INT 3 + Language 3.

I generally like the linked Attribute+Skill system, but for languages I could be persuaded to use an approach similar to Senko's or Lorebane's, where the skill ranks are more important than the linked attribute.

Is there really a lot of value in deviating from the general assessment of the total dice pool, though?

What do you see to be the value in this - a very intuitive person may grasp the details of a language even with minimal training, as good as someone with more training but less raw "brain power," for lack of a better term. Why is that a problem?

I don't like complexity for what appears to be its own sake, or solely for the sake of verisimilitude (see sig  ) and that's just how this reads to me.

[Beta]

To Whiskeyjack's point, I'm not sure I love the idea that someone with INT 6 + Language 1 would understand or speak the language better than someone with INT 3 + Language 3.

(bolding mine)

But they don't.  Understand or speak the language better, that is.

They communicate better, which is different.  They pick up more on  tone and body language, and use those better themself.  They extrapolate and interpolate better.  They are better at guessing the meaning of words they don't really know based on similar words.  They are better at reading the listener and knowing when their point has been received and when it hasn't been and they have to try another way.  They are better at figuring out how to make their point with the words and grammar that they know, rather than trying to just translate with inadequate tools.

i.e. Maybe they don't know the word for slander, but if they say "Yesterday he go to the bathroom on my name!" the point gets across clearly enough -- even if it isn't very fluent use of the language.

[Senko]

Not to me but that rather proves the point. I read that sentence as he used the speakers ID to take a bathroom break which is the difference between speaking the language well and not but someone with their skill mainly in the stat's would notice the confusion better or pick up I look at the id.

[Whiskeyjack]

They communicate better, which is different.  They pick up more on  tone and body language, and use those better themself.  They extrapolate and interpolate better.  They are better at guessing the meaning of words they don't really know based on similar words.  They are better at reading the listener and knowing when their point has been received and when it hasn't been and they have to try another way.  They are better at figuring out how to make their point with the words and grammar that they know, rather than trying to just translate with inadequate tools.

i.e. Maybe they don't know the word for slander, but if they say "Yesterday he go to the bathroom on my name!" the point gets across clearly enough -- even if it isn't very fluent use of the language.

Functionally, in game terms, it doesn't matter and the result is the same.

[Lorebane24]

It's not quite all the same.  Remember that your ranks in a language also works as a cap on how many dice from any given social skill you can apply when using that language.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Probably because I'm an old fuddy-duddy, I tend to view 'full literacy' as being a skill rating - rating - of the average INT + 2, or 5.  That'll result in a pool of 8, sure, but when you get down to it, it isn't a matter of 'what your Pool is', because there are two basic stages you have to get through: hearing (or comprehension), and speaking (or communication).

When it comes to comprehending a language, you get your pool - INT + Skill.  A high intuition means you have a great chance of comprehending what it is your conversational partner means, whether by body language, gestures, vocal inflection, or whatever.  Even a low-skilled individual (or a no-skilled individual who gets lucky) has a chance of understanding something quick and basic, such as 'stop!' or 'duck!'  The more complex your conversation gets, however, the higher the threshold for comprehension is, and thus the less likely you are to hit it reliably with your scintillating intuition; there are words in languages that aren't commonly used, that are used 'differently' by certain sub-cultures or different nationalities (English and American, or virtually any of the different South American Spanish-speaking nations), or that are simply unusual or infrequently used.  Even a native speaker can run into unusual or technical words that they don't understand and need explained to them, but it's easier for them to ask, and when it comes to most conversational gambits, one isn't liable to get lost in the screwball mystic realms of linguistic dark corners.  In short, if all you're doing is listening, then if you have a high Intuition, all you really need is a 1 or 2 in the language.

Which leads us to speaking - communication.  This is where subtleties of emphasis, turn-of-phrase, innuendo, and all the other really interesting linguistic tricks live.  Your straight intuition isn't going to do you much good, because trying to con the security guard by putting together "Yesterday he go to the bathroom on my name!" (to use Beta's amusing example) isn't going to get you very far - in part because it's tough to be smooth (with a con, with a negotiation, with any social capability) with someone if the words you're putting together could have come out of the mouth of a three-year-old because you still have to stop and think about how to conjugate 'ir' in the third person past participle in order 'estefar' ('to cheat' or 'to con') that Hispanic guard.  As a result, having a straight-out baseline for a familiarity with how to actually speak a language - if you've moved the knowledge of all its normal grammatical rules, its 'top 10,000 words', its little exceptional tics, from your conscious mind to your subconscious - is a very, very good guideline.

So just understanding?  That 1-2 will get you by.  But if you want to speak, be understood, and have a chance at even just casually persuading someone that the Cincinnati Lasers are going to kick the Tenochtitlán Volcanos' asses in the Friday Urban Brawl, having a language skill at (IMO a minimum of) 4 is critical.  5 for more-or-less 'like a native', and as much better than that as you care to get for your high-level negotiation.

To be fair, however, you probably need serious skill (5-6) in only a half-dozen languages in the 6th World, because of the vast spread of business and cultures.  English, Japanese, Spanish, Arabic, Mandarin (or Cantonese, depending), and Hindi will likely let you be mutually understood by 95+% of humanity, because beyond the borders of the United States, bilinguality is almost a given.  Toss in French and you can probably bump that up by another percentage point or two.

[Senko]

Shame you can only take bilingual once be nice if you could take it multiple times for different languages (need a difrfernt name though).