[DarkSpade]

If someone was born in a corporate working family, educated in a corporate school, worked in a corporate job, and was then fired and booted to the street, what kind of SIN would they have(if any)?

[Rooks]

Limited corporate? If the Corp even wants to divulge any affiliation with you otherwise they probably delete you off the grid entirely

[fseperent]

I would be more inclined to believe they would revoke your Corporate SIN but keep your information and label you persona non grata.
The corp wouldn't care enough to help the person get a national SIN.

[Rooks]

So sinless with records on file

[Pap Renvela]

So sinless with records on file

Sinless most of the time but occasionally a person w/high value marketable skills might be allowed a Limited Corporate SIN just so he can be taxed. This isn't them being nice-more like extortion: we get a piece of your future salaries or good luck with your SINless existence.

[Senko]

Its a bit vague to answer properly as what happens would I imagine depend heavily on the circumstances but 9 times out of 10 I can't see you losing it unless you've done something illegal. If only because anyone born in a corp is probably in possesion of a full SIN and even if they arent that's a huge investment not just in education/training but also loyalty given the shadowrun world they've been raised from childhood to believe the corporation is their family and they'll have attended the Sony sporting arena, shopped at the Sony supermarkets, attended the Sony schools all inside the Sony arcology. So while the corporation may not actually care about them individually they wouldn't just casually toss all that aside. A limited SIN wont necessarily have that but they'll be paying higher taxes as well and taking that off them is going to lose you that income. Its important to remember most corporations able to issue a SIN aren't going to be Tom's Plumbing servicing a small town they're going to have multiple interests with both multiple jobs for a particular field and multiples fields of work (agriculture, manufacturing, mining, genetics, RnD, etc) so even if you're fired from a specific job that doesn't mean you're fired from the corporation.

Some examples of how it could go as I see it . . .

1) Fired via redundancy because their job simply isn't needed anymore or at least not to be done by a living being: No reason to take away the corporate SIN since your still a loyal productive employee of the corporation its just you'll need to find another job to work in. Probably with some corporate redeployment "Sorry but we no longer need a trained electrician to monitor this emergency shut down button however we have many lucrative jobs in the electrical field please review the following listing and click the interest button to submit your resume." Its probably even automated matching your skills to the current openings and may require you to relocate to another country if you want to keep working and eating and anything else involving money. However just because the corporation doesn't care doesn't mean it will want to lose a corporate citizens skills/revenue.

2) Fired via taking the fall for your bosses mistakes (an example in one of the source books of where fixers come from in Japan): You'd retain the corporate SIN and be "Fired for your crimes" before the boss thanks you gratefully and introduces you to the off the books positions as a facilitator. Sure you took the blame but for everyone who matters they know you didn't do it and there'll be plenty of nice perks coming your way for your loyalty.

3) Fired for incompetance: Again you'd keep the SIN or at worst be downgraded to the limited variety because while you mucked up that's no reason to deny the corporation any future taxes from you.

4) Fired for embezzelment/crimes of some nature: Definately a loss of corporate SIN but you get a shiny new criminal one to replace it.

5) Fired for treason i.e. being the inside man on a paydata extraction: A permanent reassignment to their underground toxic waste dump examination facility currently located six feet under the nuclear disaster site of your choice.

I honestly can't see someone with a corporate SIN (limited or full) even be booted to the curb as you put it since there's not a lot of situations where that would be the outcome. It'd have to be something like a long history of poor performance in lots of different jobs ranging all the way down to basic janitorial or manual labour. Something criminal is going to usually see criminal charges fines, jail time, etc and anything severe enough to be fired from your job would probably be severe enough to have an associated jail time/criminal SIN attached. General dismissal with good performance well it wouldn't cost the company much to make a search engine that match's the employee's extensive records to the positions available across the corporation and that way your not so much firing them as reassigning them while retaining their taxes/loyalty/families loyalty etc.

Of course to me since a corporate SIN isn't really like a corporate ID today but like a national citizenship getting one given/taken away wouldn't happen easily especially a full one you'd have to really transgress just like those hired onto the corporation get a limited SIN not a full one. However its the full one's your talking about here with born and raised in the corporate fold and that's the difference between being a citizen of country X and having a visa to work in country X. I could see situations where the limited SIN is taken away especially with a new hire who doesn't perform up to the corporate standards but even those would be rare because with that group you would do a full background check before hiring them in the first place. The main groups being hired and tossed to the curb on firing would be the national SINNERs hired in job lots for basic jobs so when the Anrief factory closes down they get fired while those with corp SINs are reassigned to a similar job in either a still operating factory or another field. For example a security officer at the corporate headquarters who simply isn't suitable for that environment (I'm sure you can come up for a reason) is reassigned to a regional office then a facility being shut down then a small farming community with a population of a few hundred who all know each other and the biggest crime they have to deal with is childhood bullying or they are moved to a training job or files and records downstairs by the boiler or any of a dozen other jobs. The corp still gets their taxes, they're still employed, a job is filled everyone wins, more importantly wins (maintained loyalty, maintained taxes, jobs filled especially unpopular ones such as the resident electrician on an artic research base).

Which doesn't even consider the era this all split aside and there may still be a strong Japanocorp ethos influencing decisions with people getting promotions/pay raises based on seniority rather than talent, people reassigned to a office that isn't actually doing any work (like the simpsons had for teachers in one old episode). Then there's the old glitch in the system like what happened in office space with someone being fired but it not actually registing in the system so they kept getting paid . A local business here had a foundry they largely shut down but didn't want to fully decomission in case it was useful again in the future so for years they kept on two staff a janitor to clean the place and a supervisor to ensure the janitor did his job by the time they finally shut it down fully the two guy's had turned in their retirement papers after years of essentially being paid a full wage to show up, play chess with each other and clean up after themselves.

Its the whole level of employement issue national SINNERs would be hired and fired every day, limited corp citizens would be carefully selected for valuable skills that would see them transferred elsewhere or a contract would be renweed, a corp citizen is practically corp property and its much better to place that somewhere else its useful than to just toss it in the garbage.

[DarkSpade]

Damn, so the short of it is you just don't ever get fired?  Here's the character concept I'm working on(for what seems like forever).

Awakened guy grows up living the corp life under one of the big ten(haven't decided which yet).  The corp needed some magic types for it's security detail at a new facility so they offer him a well paying ranking position if he drops out of college and starts right away.   He takes the offer and enjoys a successful career until one day he's badly injured while fighting off a shadowrunning team.  The injuries require significant cybernetic replacements.  While he's willing to return to the job after, his superiors remind him that he got the great job because he was a mage and they really don't need another grunt. 

Now the original plan here was for him to be fired, get contacted by the team he had previously fought off, and then return to the facility with them as the newest member of their team.  The corp would have strong suspicions that it was him, but no proof.

But, since it sounds like a corp would never actually fire him in this case, I guess I need to come up with something else.  What if instead of being fired, he was offered another job?  In this case, since he never finished his education, they'd probably offer him a much crappier job than what he was used to.  Now would he have to quit, or would refusing to take the job get him fired?   If he did quit, my original question is still pretty much the same.  What kind of SIN would he have?

[fseperent]

If your character walks away, the question becomes does he know too much or could become a real threat?
If not, and your concept leans to no, bye bye SIN, hello files on record and debt to mother corp for all the cyberware (assuming it's not repossessed).
If yes, expect an "accident" in the near future.

What?
You're defaulting on mother corp.
What kind of mercy do you expect?

If you're not sure how to run a cybered mage, the Dragon Heart Saga fiction might give a little  insight.

[DarkSpade]

He'll have paid for all his own cyberware so that's not an issue.  I do plan on giving him the Records on File quality though.

[Senko]

Its not so much that you don't get fired as that being fired doesn't impact you being a corporate citizen. The important thing to remember as I see it is that a corporate SIN is much more like a modern day passport/visa than a job. You can be fired from a job but that is not the same as losing your corporate SIN. It's why children, people in training, retirees etc can have one while someone working for them might not.

So a corporate ID as an employee can be given to the national SINNER working the counter at the local stuffer shack but that's not the same as having a corporate SIN. They pay taxes to their government not the corporation, they can't get the special offers only available to corporate citizens, probably can't rent/purchase property on corporate soil, etc. On the other hand Tom a corporate citizen since birth has earned a lot of money and won the lottery so he retires. He's still a corporate citizen with his full corporate SIN, still pays 10% of his hobby earnings, still lives in a corporate arcology, is still eligible for any corporate perks that are available and so on. However that's not to say you can't lose a corporate SIN but it would have to be for either something illegal/major since its the equivalent of (let's say your American) the American government stripping you of your legal citizenship and probably telling you you're exiled from the countries borders to boot.

Now as to your specific character even with my view of the corporation SIN I don't think your concept needs much modification. Remember this redeployment idea I mentioned is going to be automated and not have the independant capacity to look outside its boxes. Your not an electrician who can still do something, you don't have bad performance reviews to see you moved to Morimoto Plastics where you spend 8 hours staring at your cubical wall, your a mage who's lost their magic and has spent a small fortune on their cyberwear after dropping out of college. So you have Employable Skills: None, Performance Reviews: Good, Identity: Full corporate SIN, potential positions: None.

So my suggestion if I were GMing would be this. There are currently no teaching jobs available and since he was a mage learning magic would probably leave him unqualified for any but basic manual labour positions which would be in a separate database hiring national SINNER'S and SINless for cheap not adult corporate citizens so it doesn't show up when searching for redeployment options and since he doesn't have negative performance reviews and a lot of seniority he doesn't get offered the fake work those people might get. He's a healthy corporate citizen who currently has no employable skills which puts him squarely in the end result of getting an email along the lines of

Mr X you are currently unable to continue working in your current capacity as a mage for "corporation x" at this time we regret to inform you there are no positions available for someone with your qualifications."

He's now fired as a mage, can't find employment with the corporation he thinks (since he would never think to look outside the corporate redeployment app to the jobs that aren't in there) but still has his corporate SIN which provides a reason for the runners to contact him because that gives then opportunities to access areas more easily than if they had to arrange a fake one. Its the disconnect between a corporate ID and a corporate SIN where the latter is more like identifying yourself nowaday's as an Australian/American/Iranian/ETC and being "fired" is not going to impact that your just an unemployed Shiawase Citizen.

[Glyph]

I could see a corporation revoking someone's SIN in a few circumstances, but normally it is the shadowrunner who ditches the SIN, often with considerable effort, in order to be able to live his/her shadowy existence (typically assumed to have been done prior to the start of play).

[Senko]

Pretty much.

SINLESS: Hired, fired and dissapeared without a thought.
National SIN: Hired/Fired on a regular basis.
Limited Corporate SIN: Hired for a specific skill set (or had their parents hired for such if they're a minor) and if they get given a limited SIN they would need to be very, very good or offering a unique skill, as long as your working with that skill set probably will continue to have the SIN.
Full Corporate SIN: Only lost if you do something illegal enough to get a criminal SIN and even then it'd probably be a CORPORATE CRIMINAL SIN or major enough to get denied as ever having lived there. This is usually only issued in special situations (part of a buy out deal) or if your born that way and correspondingly it is just as hard to lose as a national SIN would be. Its not enough to be fired or even never have held a job you are still a citizen of the Shiawase corporation.

As I said earlier a Corporate SIN in shadowrun is not the same as a corporate ID. It doesn't matter if your unemployed, in training, working full time, working part time, working on secondment somewhere else you are always going to be a citizen of that corporation and that SIN is you identification as a corporate citizen not your job or lack thereof in said corporation. A corporate SIN say's absolutely nothing about your job status instead it identifies you as a citizen of a specific company as opposed to a citizen of a specific country. A newborn child born to corporate parents will have a corporate SIN, the national sinner working the front counter at the stuffer shack wont have a corporate SIN even if they work there 50 years but they will have an employee number identifying them as a stuffer shack employee and tracking wages, training, sick leave, etc. Now if the stuffer shack works their way up from the front counter to manager of the stuffer shack western seaboard division they may be offered a limited SIN because they are important and have done a lot of hard work for the company.

Most people, even most runners with a full corporate SIN aren't going to do something bad enough to get that corporate SIN revoked which is why as Glyph said they go to great efforts to do it themselves so they can't be traced. Still given your specific situation the guy can be fired from his lucrative mage job, believably not be offered a position elsehwere and then be recruited by the runners for that SIN and his knowledge of the facility as much as anything else.

[Medicineman]

it depends upon how much Karma you want to get for the Negative Quality.
Everything from no SIN at all or criminal SIN,  to national to full Corporate SIN can be explained in the Background...

with a SINless Dance
Medicineman

[Hobbes]

it depends upon hough much Karma you want to get for the Negative Quality.
Everything from no SIN at all or criminal SIN,  to national to full Corporate SIn can be explained in the Background...

with a SINless Dance
Medicineman

This.  Setting-wise any or all of the SINner qualities or Records on File, or even the Erased Positive Quality all fit for the general "...booted to the street."

Mechanically any of the qualities work.  Story-wise, does the character have a reason to go off the grid?  Then either SINless (with or without Records on file) or Erased.  Otherwise the Limited Corporate SIN works real well for the ex-corp citizen that didn't leave in a hail of bullets.