[Rift_0f_Bladz]

If you prefer magic and combat, then 5th will most likely be the one you will prefer in the long run. Yeah, direct spells to a major hit, but between Edge, Witness my Hate, and reagents you can raise the damage significantly. Sadly, the whole Artificing group is borked.

For combat, only one armor type (2 technically if you add in hardened) for players. You only get one attack per pass (can have multiple if you split your attack pool to attack multiple targets). This with overall damage increase (especially to melee weapons) has made in some ways combat deadlier than previous editions. One punch Adept builds have sadly taken a major hit, with Critical Strike not having ranks (but can be applied to any melee weapon skill) so only +1 to dv. Like pervious versions, bio-adepts are still the best setup in the long run. While skills now go to 12(13 with PQ) I have heard dice pools are generally not as big, due to bonus dice being rarer.

4th doesn't have Deckers, and that shit ain't right. Sadly, Data Trails brought back comlink hacking (via upgrades) and that is sad. Also, the matrix needs some love, fluff and some rules wise, and most decks are way to damn expensive. Your Runners will get paid better to hunt Deckers and hawk their decks.

Did I mention pay amounts (both Nueyen and Karma) are way borked? No, they are, but this can be fixed during play. By borked, I mean, it generally is to low for costs of upgrading gear, skills, or stats.

Oh, and Technomancers need lots of love and house rules, to be effective.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Oh yeah, Technomancers are horrible in 5th. I started my last campaign in 2070, though, so we just blanket ignored technomancers as player characters.

And I think Rift is spot on with regards to lethality; in SR4 I don't think I ever had a player die, or even come close to dying. In SR5, especially during the early days when we weren't quite accustomed to the lethality level, I nearly TPKd my table on several occasions, and a few characters have burned edge to stay alive during a session.

Higher damage values for all weapons coupled with somewhat lower AV increases means that hits can now hurt much more than they did in SR4.

And while unarmed adepts took a pounding, high-strength melee characters have never been better; between all the modifiers to both attackers and defenders in melee, along with active defenses and martial arts, it's no longer a possible death sentence being an unarmed combatant.

Run & Gun has some interesting optional rules to make combat even more deadly, by the way, like the one where if your defensive dice pool is reduced below zero you take more damage, or where armor becomes a negative dice pool and DV just gets straight up taken.

Overall, I'd say there's a bigger chance of an "oops, I just killed a player character" in SR5 than there was in SR4, but that's why players have Edge, right?

[DragginSPADE]

Hmm, good to know.  I would have thought at first reading that 4th was the more lethal system due to the defender only rolling reaction vs ranged attacks, vs two attributes in 5th.  But as I said, things often work out differently in play vs expectations from reading the book. 

Another follow up:  What if anything breaks each system?  I've heard there are complaints about Grenades in 5th, are they really that bad?  Anything else that breaks/strains either system?  What about once you start getting to the higher skill levels?

Thanks to all who have responded so far, this is very interesting to me.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Run & Gun introduced a Run For Your Life action that may get you out of the way of grenades (only thrown ones, not ones fired with a grenade launcher) and/or area of attack spells. But that's the only option, pretty much, and damage can get real ugly if you factor in explosive effects bouncing off walls, aka "chunky salsa" rules.

In terms of something breaking both systems, I can't really think of anything to be honest, but I also have no problem house ruling something that gets too cheesy. Like the Super Squirt gun loaded with DMSO and Kamikaze...

[DragginSPADE]

Hmm, older editions of Shadowrun had the Squirt pistol and DMSO too.  And in 12 years of GMing/playing Shadowrun I don't think I EVER saw a player use one.  I think we used Narcojet Rifles/Pistols on occasion for runs that really needed to stay quiet.

[Herr Brackhaus]

I had one guy ask, and I immediately banned it. SR5 has pretty severe drug overdose rules:

Whenever you take a substance while you’re already on that substance or one that has a shared effect (like the way cram and novacoke both affect Reaction), you take Stun damage with a DV equal to the sum of the Addiction Ratings of the overlapping drugs, resisted with Body + Willpower.

In other words, hit someone with two doses of Kamikaze and they're taking 18S DV with nothing but Body + Willpower...

[DragginSPADE]

I had one guy ask, and I immediately banned it. SR5 has sever drug overdose rules:

Whenever you take a substance while you’re already on that substance or one that has a shared effect (like the way cram and novacoke both affect Reaction), you take Stun damage with a DV equal to the sum of the Addiction Ratings of the overlapping drugs, resisted with Body + Willpower.

In other words, hit someone with two doses of Kamikaze and they're taking 18S DV with nothing but Body + Willpower...

.......wow.

Yeah, if someone tried to weaponize addiction ratings like that at my table I might have to hit them over the head with the rulebook.

[Duellist_D]

Considering he could simply use Narcojet in the SS for 2 times 15S Damage, immediate effect with the first hit and half the cost for the DMSO payload, the Kamikaze-Squirt sounds more like a gimmick option than something broken to me.
Plus, you avoid that awkward situation where your first Kamikaze-DMSO hits and the following one misses your now heavily boosted opponent.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Narcoject has an onset time, unlike drugs, which take effect immediately. Even with an "Immediate" effect, Narcoject doesn't actually take effect until the end of the combat turn.

And your argument that Narcoject in the Super Squirt deals 15 damage is yet another reason why I just banned the whole weapon

[DragginSPADE]

Narcoject has an onset time, unlike drugs, which take effect immediately. Even with an "Immediate" effect, Narcoject doesn't actually take effect until the end of the combat turn.

And your argument that Narcoject in the Super Squirt deals 15 damage is yet another reason why I just banned the whole weapon

I thought drugs with a timing of "Immediate" still took effect at the end of the turn also?  The core book says that except as noted below they use the same rules as toxins, etc.  And I don't see anything modifying their speed.

Either way you're right, that's a stupidly powerful weapon.  The only thing balancing it that I can see is that it requires an Exotic Ranged Weapon skill.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Even the exotic skill needed doesn't balance it. By comparison, the Parashield pistol and rifle have nothing going for them, as their vectors require injection toxins and 3 net hits against an armored target. The Super Squirt just needs to hit. It's just a badly balanced weapon, so we banned it and allowed the Parashield pistol and rifle to be used with their respective firearms skills instead, with the limitation that you can only weaponize toxins, not drugs.

[Duellist_D]

Ah yeah, immediate with drugs in SR 5 isn't really immediate.
Still, you have at least one INI pass of your enemy reacting to your fire in both cases and I'd rather have to face that without him getting a ridiculous statboost before.

On the Topic of banning:
Supersquirt+external Smartgun+custom grip is a mere 1250 Nuyen.
One shot of DMSO Narcojet costs 82 Nuyen.

Pretty cheap for a 6 ACC 15S HM (R) Pistol that basically ignores all armor.
Only plus for the Parashieldrifle is sniper vs light pistol ranges.
This can easily be relevant.
The parapistol however...


And people did complain about stick and shock in 4e
(Rightfully so, it's one of the Editions stinkers, to get back on Topic).

[Herr Brackhaus]

Good call on the drug timing; for some reason I thought drugs took effect when taken, not end of combat turn like toxins. Coolio. Still doesn't make me change my mind on the Super Squirt

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

And this crap is why I use full body armor with chem seal, then murder the fool with the squirt gun (by shoving it down his throat).

And how do SnS suck? You lose 2 points of damage, but it become stun and electric. Ap becomes -5, only require a grazing hit (by some interpretations), and if damage goes through add -5 initiative and -1 to all dice pools then add in wound modifiers.

And for the squirt gun, I would let hits add to damage (don't think you are just clarifying).

For cheap knock outs I would rather use a Remington Suppressor with a laser sight with SnS. ACC 6(7) DV 5S(E) AP -5 15 round "clip" and SA/BF comes with a suppressor (part of the cost) for around 800 and only restricted.

Edit: Thanks Herr Brackhaus for the mistakes on my part, so those were corrected.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Stick 'n Shock AP does not stack with weapon AP, it replaces it as per the SnS entry.