[Kincaid]

Reaver's description of worked hours is spot on.  Various other industries follow it as well--try working 38 hours in Palo Alto.  The Sixth World is that made worse.

[Senko]

Yes it's a distioopia but it's not a he'll dimension where everyone suffers all the time. You can only push employees so far before you lose them or create gaping weaknesses in your structure and skilled professionals (mages, doctors, deckers, etc) aren't that easy to replace especially if you have a bad reputation. Then you have other factors such as the major influence in corporate culture being Japan at a time when they still tool good care of their employees. Studies showing a happy worker is better for the bottom line than one who doesn't care. Forget ethics, forget human decency from a bottom line perspective there's only so far you can push before the benefits stop outweighing the drawbacks.

Again it's personal views but I can't see any job where the employee pool is low (mages), high risk and high skill where you need people at their best (air traffic controllers) or simply involve a full corporate Sinner being like that

I CAN see a mage voluntarily working 70+ hours to make loads of money (20k+ Nuyen a month) or a manual labour job paying low money for very long hours. I can't see a brain surgeon having to work 70+ hours just to make ends meet. Nor for that matter them being allowed too (Europe's hour limitation laws). You want the people doing that kind of work to be bright eyed and bushy tailed (maybe literally) because the potential lawsuit if they muck up and instead of hooking up a new Deck instead make the decker brain-dead could cost millions. Maybe billions in knock on effects.

[MijRai]

Uh, that is actually a somewhat valid description of a dystopia; "an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one." 

You think you can only push people so far, but go look back at the Industrial Revolution, third world countries, etc.  Look at millennia of slavery.  People can and will adjust and function in order to survive.  They're even more likely to do so if they don't think they have another option, or have hope that it will get better.  Both of those concepts are something the megacorporations wholeheartedly support and suggest, even if it isn't true. 

This whole 'taking good care of you' thing is extremely relative to start, and has gone downhill in this dystopian setting.  Human rights (or sapient, or whatever you want to call them) have been getting trampled for decades.  A sizable fraction of the world's population can be murdered with no legal repercussions.  Sure, the megacorporation offers a great pension...  But they're going to make you earn it, to start.  And if your health is in decline due to the conditions you worked in and you'll only ever claim a fraction of the pension they promised...  Well, they just pocketed that money as a win. 

As far as the bottom line goes, that's not always accurate.  It isn't about making a perfect product 100% of the time.  It is about getting as much profit out of someone as possible.  They don't have to worry about unions or labor laws or morality.  Sometimes, getting the most out of someone involves training and care.  Sometimes it means working them to the bone, then moving them a little so they work to a different bone.

You act as if Europe's labour laws still exist after the Euro-Wars, the dissolution of multiple countries, two Crashes, multiple VITAS outbreaks, the Awakening, the Shiawase Decision (remember that megacorporations of AA and higher have extraterritoriality, they only have to follow their own laws and nominally the CC mandates on their property), etc.  Even if they still existed, they wouldn't apply on megacorporate grounds. 

You also really seem to be missing the part where the megacorporations don't have a bad reputation among the general populace (especially not their own citizens).  They have this thing called propaganda, which they're really quite good at.  They're literally taking people from the slums and giving them a marginally better option, or flat-out lying to their people and saying everything outside of their aegis is horrific.  And for the most part, it is.  They don't have to be honest, they don't have to care. 

[Reaver]

Remember the "we are the 99%" movement a couple of years ago?

Same idea.

1% of the population lives like kings. These are the VIPs of Megacorps, Presidents/Prime Ministers of countries, and their chosen few. If you have something of value to these people, be it power, clout, magic, skills, or just plain smarts, you live like a king.

If you don't fall into that1%, you are left fighting for the scraps that they leave.... along with the other 99%.

So yes, SOME people live well, even if they are not the "kings" of the Castle.... but SOME is a far cry from even "a few". And the numbers tell you, What? 5% of the population is awakened? Well, that's great for that 5%, they get a marginally LESS shitty world then the mundanes of equal stature.... BUT its still shitty based on what you know or expect.

And I doubt you will ever get it.

Gamers, come from a social class that really doesn't understand poverty or corruption that well. By the very definition of the hobby, we have to be well off, come from a country with a high social index, and have enough personal freedoms and financial success to actually afford our hobby. Folks, the saying "All the hard work has been done" holds pretty true for many of us. Our country protects us, has Laws that keep us safe and allows us to thrive. We have a system of government that is corrective and evolving.... all hallmarks of a Developed Country, Which 95% of us come from....

Compare that to some other countries, heck, even better off Developing Countries like Ghana.

Systemic corruption on all levels of government.
NO social services
NO health care
NO running water for 70% of the country
NO electricity for 40% of the country
Rampant Racism
Basic educational system with NO mandatory enrollment.



Folks, unless you've seen it. You can not believe it. And if you've never gone without, its hard know what it's like without it.

[Senko]

I thought mages (total not active) was only around 1%. Its a preference thing as I said me I find those "The world is horrible, everyone suffers, you can never hope for even a little respite" type worlds get old very fast. On the other hand a world where a mage can work a 40 hour week and make 10,000 a month because they're that valuable while the Janitor works 60 for 2,500 and the guy in the corner office does NOTHING and pulls down 5,000 because while he's utterly incompetant he is a full corporate sinner and has been getting promotions to his current position of VP in charge of Falderoll because of it offers a lot more room for interesting story telling. I'm not arguing it is or isn't any specific thing here just suggesting possibilities such as certain professions (air traffic controllers, doctors, mages, nuclear technicians, etc) could well get something similar to Europes 48 hour max legislation. That corporations may well treat their employees reasonably well rather than working them to death because unlike a Dystopia this isn't you work for us or you don't work its you work for us unless Renraku, Sony, Shiawase, etc, etc offer you better conditions.

If you want a world that's a crumbling ruin of civilization or the elite corporate CEO's rule earth from their orbitting satellites (elysium) then go ahead. For me I have different tastes.

[MijRai]

Yeah, 1% of the population is 'Awakened.'  It ends up being 2,500 or so out 1,000,000 who have an appreciable talent and the capability/sanity to use it.  Which is about the same percentage of the population as lawyers and doctors. 

I think if you're having problems with dystopic settings...  Maybe don't play them? 

You really don't seem to understand that the guy in the corner office can't do 'nothing' if he wants to keep that office.  It's not a charity, it is a megacorporation.  If you don't perform to expectations, they'll either 'fix' you or replace you.  Dog eat dog world.  You earn it, or someone else will.  Unless you've got some kind of stellar blackmail or other one-of-a-kind thing on your side (at which point, you sort of did earn it), it isn't going to happen. 

You also don't seem to understand that the Megacorporations don't tell people that they can leave, nor do they usually let them sign contracts that legally allow them to leave.  The entire corporate culture is designed to be an 'us vs. them' mentality, where everybody who isn't from the home-countrycorporation is an enemy.  They make you afraid of the outside world, while assuring you that they are perfectly safe and will take care of you.  There's now third generation corporate citizens out there, who literally know nothing of the outside world/culture besides the processed drek that is filtered through corporate censorship.  On top of that, all of those people they draw in?  Besides being the ones to offer the true golden ticket, they sign newcomers in with extremely binding contracts that will ruin a person's life if they try to renege or quit.  Clauses that legally prohibit you from working for other megacorporations, clauses that make you have to pay back everything the megacorporation silently provided with crippling interest, etc. etc.  And even if you opt for it, sometimes they still won't let you leave.  The megacorporations want their money's worth, and they'll get it out of you by any means necessary.  Why do you think extractions paid for by the extractee are a known part of the setting?  They're trying to avoid those penalties for leaving, or when their megacorporation won't let them go.  It is a dystopia, never forget that. 

Megacorporations probably do treat their valued employees somewhat better than your average wage-slave.  More benefits, more rewards.  They're still not going to be working for 30 hours a week.  They get paid and rewarded too much for that.  They probably have a 40-50 hour work-week, and then pull their extra, unpaid time just like everyone else raised or indoctrinated in their megacorporate culture where competition is king. 

You do realize the Corporate Court rules from Zurich Orbital, right? 

[Mirikon]

And don't forget, out of those 2500 with 'usable' Talent, not all of those are going to be capable of working a corporate lifestyle. Those with the Talent tend to be a bit eccentric at times. So of that 2500, you may have just 2000 who can hack it in corporate life, while the others fall into the shadows, become gangers, work to protect their neighborhood, go off to live in the wilderness, become toxics, turn to insect totems, and so on. And that 2500 also includes talismongers as well.

But MijRai is right. Shadowrun is a Dystopian setting. Labor laws have pretty much gone the way of the dodo, and unions are nonexistent. People are locked into contracts they can't get out of, and brainwashed to the point that they don't want to leave. They are told that, if they fall below their goals, they'll be sent out of the safety of corporate life, into the terrible lands outside. So they work 70 hours a week, and don't complain too much, because that's the price you pay for safety.

High value employees, like your top-line researchers or high-power mages, have better conditions, get more leeway, but are locked in even tighter, always have guards 'for their safety', and are still required to work long hours, because if they aren't working what their subordinates are, then someone from management may decide they aren't worth the money any more. Until you get to the very top, that's the way it is. And even at the top, you're not exactly sitting back, eating caviar and sipping champagne through the work day. Sure, you're not slaving away on an assembly line, but do you know how much work a Damien Knight or Lofwyr has to put in to keep their corporate empire running?

If you want shorter work days (with the increased risk of sudden lead poisoning), you drop out of the corporate world, and enter the shadows.

[Crimsondude]

This is a good point. The megacorporations have gone to the trouble of having citizens and cultures and constructing arcologies and enclaves for their employees. They don't treat employees like chattel quite like we do in hyper-capitalism because the megacorps aren't capitalist, they're neo-feudal sovereign entities. So they aren't going to be quite as ruthless and uncaring as American corporations are because they don't have the pressures from shareholders for the most part and they don't have the identity and cultural inclinations to just grind down employees as disposable quasi-freelancers. That being said, the cafeteria at Google is for the company's benefit, not the employees'. The benefit to the employees is collateral. The same goes for the benefits and treatment of citizens by megacorporations.

In fact, there is a strong argument to be made that corp citizens are like Roman citizens and the outside employees working for them or at subsidiaries are Roman slaves. WAGEslaves if you will.

[MijRai]

Actually, my numbers don't include Toxic Magicians, Insect Shamans or Blood Mages; that drek falls under the insane category (not that Blood Mages can't work in megacorporate society; look at Aztechnology!). 

It's about 1,800 Aspected Magicians, 200 Full Magicians and perhaps 500 Adepts, with Mystic Adepts falling somewhere in there.  The 1,800 breaks down to 600 Aspected Sorcerers, 600 Aspected Conjurers, and 600 pitiful Aspected Enchanters, by my understanding.  Most of those Enchanters probably get into talismongering or the practical field-work involved, as they're the most populous group with Alchemy (the only skill that lets you harvest reagents currently).  Conjurers make great security professionals/force multipliers, sorcerers are defined by the spells they learn. 

I'd also cut down the numbers who can/will work megacorporate down more as well; there's federal/state, private sector, megacorporate, and illegal options for all of those eccentric mages who follow different magical paradigms.  I'd say maybe 50% could cut it.

My final point is that I would stress that the top of the pyramids can never laze about, because they have to keep their position secure.  Everyone (or close enough as to make no difference) with the capability to try wants your spot .  If they can't take and hold their place on top, the corporate leadership has a long way to fall.  In my mind, they probably work themselves harder than the clueless wage-slave, because they know what is in store for them if they go down.  Unless they have a way to make a lateral move elsewhere, at least. 

[Crimsondude]

My final point is that I would stress that the top of the pyramids can never laze about, because they have to keep their position secure.  Everyone (or close enough as to make no difference) with the capability to try wants your spot .  If they can't take and hold their place on top, the corporate leadership has a long way to fall.  In my mind, they probably work themselves harder than the clueless wage-slave, because they know what is in store for them if they go down.  Unless they have a way to make a lateral move elsewhere, at least.

Indeed.

[Senko]

Actually I understand that quite well I just prefer to run my games somewhat differently and the novels I've read also have things not as bleak as you'd paint it.

It may be a taste thing but I just don't read the books/mechanics the same way you do. Like CrimsonDude said this is not western capitalism this IS some unqiue variant that evolved from a different world and different dominant culture. Not to mention all the people who aren't actually working for a AA/AAA one will be under the countries laws. As for locking the employee's up so they don't see the outside world sure they try and do that but again unlike most Dystopia's there isn't a Us or Noone situation. There are dozens of AA+ companies working hard to undermine their competitiors and steal their top talent.


As for mage's you also need to include in those numbers all those traditions that aren't suited for a corporate lifestyle s MirRaj said. The number of active, useful mages could be a lot smaller than most people think. Lets look at Seattle's numbers of around 3 million people.

3,107,250 = 31,072 magically awakened.

Sounds good doesn't it there are over 30 thousand mages you can hire but then you need to consider the following . . .

AGE: How many are too young/too old to work?
SOCIAL CLASS: How many slip through the cracks because they never got properly tested, how many more in a dystopia you prefer?
TRADITION: How many are of a tradition that doesn't work well for a corporate lifestyle?
INTEREST: How many don't want to be a mage at all?
POWER LEVEL: How many don't have enough  magical ability to be a full mage or even useful?
PREJUDICE: How many got targetted/killed by policlubs and are running scared or loading up on cyberware to dull the magic?
EMPLOYER: How many simply go to work for someone else?
UNSUITABILITY: How many are simply not employable for some other reason?

Lets use MijRaj's numbers as I don't have time for major research.

2,500 = 200 full magicians. 2500/200 = 12.5. So 1 in 12.5 full magicians 31,072/12.5 = 2,485 full magicians. Now reduce that number by all the other factors too old, too young, not interested, not suitable, not enough power, not of a suitable tradition? Out of that 2,500 thousand full magicians you could wind up with an actual trained, useable pool of only a few hundred for a metropolis of several million people.

My final point is again I AM NOT SAYING IT IS THIS, I am saying these are factors YOU CAN USE IF YOU WANT in your game.

[Crimsondude]

It's a gilded cage.

But it's still a cage.

[MijRai]

You're getting my numbers off by a bit, Senko.  Mine already factor in unsuitability/lack of power/insanity, etc.  The 2,500 functionally Awakened is out of 10,000 'Awakened' individuals (all of them, no matter how minor their talent or if it drove them insane, broke them, they burned out, etc.), out of 1,000,000 people.  It doesn't factor in age (which shouldn't be too large of a concern, getting them while they're young is a great method) or motivation.  It also runs the gamut from your average Magic 3 dude to Harlequin levels of Initiation.  On top of that, why would megacorporations not hire aspected magicians?  They have a built-in excuse to pay them less than their fully capable brethren (you can't do every Mr. Mage can, so you don't rate).