NEWS

Rigger Mecha?

  • 98 Replies
  • 26862 Views

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2996
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #15 on: <04-19-16/1455:41> »
I think part of the reason they don't exist is, they don't need to.  Why put yourself into something when you can wirelessly rig it, allowing for say, more fuel or bullets or armor instead of a big cavity that has to be designed to hold a person.  Combined with that the humanoid shape isn't really the best for combat.  Wheels are faster and can hold more weight, and flying units allow flight...  Humanoid is really just flimsy, and all the limbs are vulnerable spots.  I'd rather have a big ol' box with some armored gunports and treads than something with delicate hands and feet any day when it comes to combat.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Fabe

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
« Reply #16 on: <04-19-16/1459:21> »
 I think something like the real world Kuratas would be a suitable mecha for shadowrun. Its not too big and carries a reasonable amount of weapons. Sure it might be something outside a Runner reach to own but for a high powered game it could make for a good challenge for a group of prime runners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratas

PeterSmith

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
« Reply #17 on: <04-19-16/1514:26> »
Why put yourself into something when you can wirelessly rig it, allowing for say, more fuel or bullets or armor instead of a big cavity that has to be designed to hold a person.

Wireless rigging means somebody can override it.
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

TonyK

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 120
  • 20 year on-and-off SR fan...
« Reply #18 on: <04-19-16/1524:29> »
Or do I just not have that book?
Rigger 4. :)
My fave quote from SRR: "Damn you Mike Pondsmith"

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #19 on: <04-19-16/1525:50> »
Why put yourself into something when you can wirelessly rig it, allowing for say, more fuel or bullets or armor instead of a big cavity that has to be designed to hold a person.

Wireless rigging means somebody can override it.

Yup, or you install a rigger cocoon and suddenly there is no wireless. And while the humanoid step has limits, there are plently of things tanks and such can't do. Plus, you can have wheels in the humanoid, such as in ankle joint and knees, and suddenly it can move at speeds similar to your tank. Plus tank combat is limited much more than what a humanoid could do.

Have you read/looked at the harden mil-spec armor out of Run and Gun? Minus the jets and built in weapons the are iron man suits.

I ... might have had something to do with those hardsui... err ... hardened suits.

<.<
>.>


*ninjavanish*

Bless you Freelancer ninja! (Deep bow)
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Xexanoth

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 117
« Reply #20 on: <04-19-16/1529:30> »
Have you read/looked at the harden mil-spec armor out of Run and Gun? Minus the jets and built in weapons the are iron man suits.

So they're pretty much a Mech Suit minus everything that would really make em Mech Suits?
They are REALLY good armor but thats it and they are actually harder to move in(normaly a "Mecha suit" should make it easier)
Not to mention if you start to use that against corps/states, you're gonna be a wanted man, and not the good kind of wanted.
Maybe not if you're using it once, but if word goes around of a runner walking around in high-spec mil gear making problems....
Corporate armies where would we be without them.

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #21 on: <04-19-16/1736:52> »
What you mean armor that can soak a single .50 cal round (as in no damage to the user) would be hard to move in? Shock!! So is actual body armor, such as majority of the heavy armors in SR 5. Full Body armor out of the core being one of the exceptions. And yes, with some mods (currently via house rules) you could easily make a mecha suit. Or just mod the mobility chair/car in Rigger 5.0.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Novocrane

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2225
« Reply #22 on: <04-19-16/2333:47> »
Have you read/looked at the harden mil-spec armor out of Run and Gun? Minus the jets and built in weapons the are iron man suits.
Restrictive and clunky, with few mod options. That's not exactly how I think of iron man.

Herr Brackhaus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3041
« Reply #23 on: <04-19-16/2341:24> »
Honestly, I think powered armor suits from Arsenal is closer to mech suits than mil-spec armor, which while certainly powered, isn't quite what I would associate with something like an Iron Man suit, unless you're going for an Iron Monger feel.

Don't know anything about anime, so...

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #24 on: <04-19-16/2346:37> »
The larger problems with this and anything like this is simple economy of action and energy.

The first giant problem you have is energy. You need a power source that is robust enough to installed in the unit, and powerful enough to move the unit. This is a problem. They power levels required to operate the system, dictate the over all size..

Next, you have to consider the mechanical forces involved, and the energy requirements to move them. And this is a double whammy. Lets look at a few servos and motor control assemblies.

The energy required to move a 3psi butterfly valve is .10 amps on average. (if you have an automated sprinkler system for you lawn, you have 3psi butterfly valves, as this is the general valve system used in 90% of those systems. Of course, this means is can ONLY move up to 3 pounds of force.... about the strength of a newborn baby.... The amount of power required for a servo to move an 800 pound object runs roughly 30 to 50 amps....
And that's for a single servo, now multiply that  by the number of servos in the system.. And lets assume an incredibly simple system, 2 servos per arm and leg, and 2 servos in the torso... that 10 servos at 40amps (avg).. that's 400 amps of power! (about twice the pull of a 2000sq/ft home).

Of course, you could do it with a less power intensive system, a hydraulic fluid system... The amount of mechanical/electrical energy required to push fluid is much less, thus allowing for savings in energy. (roughly 3 amps per servo) But, the system is much slower to respond, and you have to have a storage tank to hold and recycle the hydro fluid....

And, we have not even touched on the mechanical stresses, the weight of the system (which must be accounted)..... In short, to get more "performance", you need to increase weight, when you increase weight, you increase the energy requirements to move, which means a more robust power system, which means more weight, which means a more robust power system, which means more weight, which means you need a more robust power system...... (And on and on it goes)

So what could power such a system? Sort answer; Not much.... your choices for power are limited...... battery, engine, or reactor.
A battery capable of providing 10hours of power at 400amps would be MASSIVE (as in battery bank weighing in the THOUSANDS of kilograms), and that only provides power for our simple system for 10 hours.

Now, the same system could be powered by a 15hp diesel or gas motor. (assuming 24vdc) but you now have to worry about fuel....

A reactor could work, but you also need a turbine and water to generate the power. (a reactor creates heat, the heat turns water to steam, steam turns a turbine and generates your electricity). Not to mention a containment and shielding system for said heat and radiation.....

There has been several attempts to create a "walker" style tank for a number of years...And even a few prototypes though out history... all with the same result.... Too expensive, reduced battlefield performance, high maintenance costs, and limited armor protection.

**(Adamo1618 is an electrical engineer, and should have even more knowledge then I do on power systems, so we might be lucky enough for him to weigh in too)   
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Novocrane

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2225
« Reply #25 on: <04-20-16/0622:15> »
Of all the topics to start getting persnickety over realism, rather than verisimilitude, I wouldn't pick this one. YMV, I guess. ;)

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #26 on: <04-20-16/0748:42> »
The larger problems with this and anything like this is simple economy of action and energy.

The first giant problem you have is energy. You need a power source that is robust enough to installed in the unit, and powerful enough to move the unit. This is a problem. They power levels required to operate the system, dictate the over all size..

Next, you have to consider the mechanical forces involved, and the energy requirements to move them. And this is a double whammy. Lets look at a few servos and motor control assemblies.

The energy required to move a 3psi butterfly valve is .10 amps on average. (if you have an automated sprinkler system for you lawn, you have 3psi butterfly valves, as this is the general valve system used in 90% of those systems. Of course, this means is can ONLY move up to 3 pounds of force.... about the strength of a newborn baby.... The amount of power required for a servo to move an 800 pound object runs roughly 30 to 50 amps....
And that's for a single servo, now multiply that  by the number of servos in the system.. And lets assume an incredibly simple system, 2 servos per arm and leg, and 2 servos in the torso... that 10 servos at 40amps (avg).. that's 400 amps of power! (about twice the pull of a 2000sq/ft home).

Of course, you could do it with a less power intensive system, a hydraulic fluid system... The amount of mechanical/electrical energy required to push fluid is much less, thus allowing for savings in energy. (roughly 3 amps per servo) But, the system is much slower to respond, and you have to have a storage tank to hold and recycle the hydro fluid....

And, we have not even touched on the mechanical stresses, the weight of the system (which must be accounted)..... In short, to get more "performance", you need to increase weight, when you increase weight, you increase the energy requirements to move, which means a more robust power system, which means more weight, which means a more robust power system, which means more weight, which means you need a more robust power system...... (And on and on it goes)

So what could power such a system? Sort answer; Not much.... your choices for power are limited...... battery, engine, or reactor.
A battery capable of providing 10hours of power at 400amps would be MASSIVE (as in battery bank weighing in the THOUSANDS of kilograms), and that only provides power for our simple system for 10 hours.

Now, the same system could be powered by a 15hp diesel or gas motor. (assuming 24vdc) but you now have to worry about fuel....

A reactor could work, but you also need a turbine and water to generate the power. (a reactor creates heat, the heat turns water to steam, steam turns a turbine and generates your electricity). Not to mention a containment and shielding system for said heat and radiation.....

There has been several attempts to create a "walker" style tank for a number of years...And even a few prototypes though out history... all with the same result.... Too expensive, reduced battlefield performance, high maintenance costs, and limited armor protection.

**(Adamo1618 is an electrical engineer, and should have even more knowledge then I do on power systems, so we might be lucky enough for him to weigh in too)

In a setting with functional unlimited powered battery cars, hand held laser weapons, and hand held railgun (now there is something that using a large batter, current one goes a naval ships) you are going to try and be realistic? Common, pick a better argument than realism, because ignoring the whole magic bit, I'm going to point to the matrix and ask wtf? Use realism to make that crap work.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Herr Brackhaus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3041
« Reply #27 on: <04-20-16/0814:16> »
Also don't forget artificial muscle fibers that apparently can make you stronger than power lifters, or the whole nanotech thing enabling complex surgeries like wired reflexes to exist, and custom grown tissue that makes you better in every way.

I think it's safe to say that this is one universe that is technologically superior to the modern world in almost every way.

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #28 on: <04-20-16/0947:20> »
Also don't forget artificial muscle fibers that apparently can make you stronger than power lifters, or the whole nanotech thing enabling complex surgeries like wired reflexes to exist, and custom grown tissue that makes you better in every way.

I think it's safe to say that this is one universe that is technologically superior to the modern world in almost every way.

And this artificial muscle doesn't require massive skeletal restructuring so the physical frame won't snap under the strains caused by the significantly stronger/faster muscles. And how does the Str 9 Agility 9 cyber limb have power (we are going to ignore how these would conflict with skeletal structure).

So again, please don't use realism for why ShadowRun doesn't have Mecha of some kind. It just doesn't work, because than most everything else will become suddenly impossible as well.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #29 on: <04-20-16/0948:30> »
Honestly, I think powered armor suits from Arsenal is closer to mech suits than mil-spec armor, which while certainly powered, isn't quite what I would associate with something like an Iron Man suit, unless you're going for an Iron Monger feel.

Don't know anything about anime, so...

Goodness! We need to introduce you to the original Bubblegum Crisis series (All six episodes of it) ... you'll see *so* *much* *Shadowrun* in there!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajTAnMqhZB8