NEWS

Advantages of Adepty vs. Cybered Characters?

  • 12 Replies
  • 3611 Views

Richtenstahl

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 34
« on: <04-19-16/0953:56> »
Hello Chummers!
In my group we just start with SR5, but I know here are many who studied the System inside and out.
So my question to you is:
What is the Advantage of adepts versus cybered charakters. And let's, for the Moment, not go into the fact that of cause adepts can cyber up too. Let's assume, we are talking about "pure" adepts or, let's call them sammys for briefness' sake.
So, in which areas (combat and otherwise) can adepts shine over sammys, in which areas it is the other way around? And where can one do something that the other cannot do at all?
Examples might be that for adepts initiative-boosts are easyer to get high  (at least in the beginning) than for sammys, and they can have astral perception which sammys can't at all.
On the other Hand it is far easyer to boost attributes with cyber. And no Adept can emulate a, damn, I don't have my English book here, "Enterhakenhand" in German, the cyberhand that shoots off like a grappling hook...

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #1 on: <04-19-16/1000:40> »
Adepts make the best melee fighters and faces.

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2996
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #2 on: <04-19-16/1044:09> »
Continuing off of what you mentioned, Adepts work best as specialists.  They pick one or two skills and dominate with them, due to their Improved Ability power and other more specialized powers like Nimble Fingers, Penetrating Strike, etc.  They also dominate at dodging attacks due to Combat Sense and their usually high REA.  An adept with A in Attributes (not uncommon, since B is the highest they can put in MAG/RES) can begin the game with around 17 defense dice--  This means most non-specialists you come up against won't be able to land a hit on you, and if they do, it's not going to have many net hits.

Meanwhile, due to the comparitive ease of improving attributes via augmentations, a cyber character is a better specialist.  They can have a skill group at 6 and just have very high base AGI, allowing them a wide-range of options.  I most often see this with melee, so a character can rifle-butt, use a backup knife, and isn't helpless unarmed.  While they can still have respectable dodge, they are most easily able to tank hits.  First by having very high Armor, through a combination of Dermal Plating/Orthoskin, and Bone Lacing/Bone Density.  Then, after play starts (or before, with the Restricted Gear quality) they can get the Pain Editor, which is a MASSIVE improvement, nearly tripling the damage they can soak.  This can turn someone into an absolute combat monster.

Now let's talk utility.

An adept can have a very high dice pool.  For example, I made an Ork Samurai who had 22 Dice with his weapon-focus Katana.  What this mean is not only are they more accurate, they do more damage, and can use called shots all the time.  You usually don't need 22 dice to hit; and in fact, with weapons with lower Accuracy, it may be too much.  But called shots can help immensely and offer you a lot of versatility.  You can always simply go for Vitals, (getting -4 for +2 DV) or you can do fancy things like Called Shot: Neck.  You loose 8 dice, but 14 is still more than enough, and the result can and will be devastating to your target.

Adepts also have access to the mystical side of things.  Having an adept who can hurt spirits is huge; spirits rely on two things to be difficult to fight--  Immunity to Normal Weapons, and very high Dodge pools (for higher Force spirits).  My aforementioned Ork counters both of those things with a magic sword and 22 dice to hit.  Perception-wise, Astral Perception can be useful in many ways, though I won't go into it here.

On the cyber side of things, there's the simple truth that Metal Trumps Flesh.  While this means they can take a beating, as I already said, it also means their technology allows you to interface with the matrix in many ways an Adept cannot.  A good skillwire system and a skillsoft network adds even more to the flexibility of a character, and use of sensor technology and implanted smartlinks can make you very aware of the status of any battlefield you're a part of.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Medicineman

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2310
« Reply #3 on: <04-19-16/1054:35> »
Adepts are better at ...not getting Hit ( Combat Sense)
and Cybered Sams at ..."Duking it out" /Soaking Damage (Cyberarmor and cyberware Armor)

>>>  "Enterhakenhand" in German,
can be translated to Graple Hand ;)
Jeah, a Cyberarm or two can have a lot of Gimmicks ,from internal Comlinks to Cyberspringholster to a Drone Hand or Cybereye Crawling around

( I totally prefer slightly cybered up Adepts with Powers that add to their Cyberware, Like Raptor/Cyberlegs with Hydraulic Jets and Wallrunning ---> Awesome ;)  but thats not the point of the Thread   )

with a synergist' Dance
Medicineman
« Last Edit: <04-19-16/1057:02> by Medicineman »
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #4 on: <04-19-16/1115:48> »
Adepts are fast. They are the only ones who can begin play with 4 Ini dice without using special qualities and spending heaps of cash.
Longterm they have a lot more development potential than cybered characters because they are more Karma dependent than cash (The 200.000 nuyen needed to buy the second grade of Ini-Bioware is equivalent to 100 Karma or 5 initiations).

But they are on the whole a lot more squishy, because the options to make them durable have a higher opportunity cost than those for cybered PCs (getting soak dice from ware is relatively cheap compared to boosting Body with powerpoints and investing in mystic armor)



talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #5 on: <04-19-16/1137:45> »
As mentioned Adepts win at specialization in either Combat or Social.  Adepts have more options at a lower cost for character improvement (Foci, Initiation are cheaper than skill and stat increases). 

Cyber'd characters can get a broader starting skill base because of cheaper stat boosts.  Cyber'd up characters don't care about Background Count, which is really the main thing IMO.

At char gen Adepts can squeeze in a few more dice in a couple skills.  But overall Adepts and Cyber'd characters are reasonably even at start.  For a broad definition of "reasonably even" anyway.  IMO it becomes a question of Background Count vs lower cost advancement.  If you're in a low BGC I'd play an Adept in a heartbeat. 

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2996
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #6 on: <04-19-16/1200:19> »
As mentioned Adepts win at specialization in either Combat or Social.

Adepts can do literally anything.  A rigger adept who's just using incredible REA, high initiative, and incredible skill in Gunnery and Pilot is badass.  A hacker adept can also AR-hack like a boss and can have incredible dicepools, and being able to use Adept Concentration to ignore Noise is kinda retarded.  Hell, you wanna make a medic adept?  Go for it.  "Adept" means what the word implies, "very skilled or proficient at something".  That something can be any skill in Shadowrun.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #7 on: <04-19-16/1204:03> »
One thing everyone forgot to mention: There is NO ceiling to an adept's power. As long as the adept continues to invest in his magic rating and initiations, he can continue to gain power points, thus expanding his powers to an ungodly frighteningly high levels...... Trust me, Never, EVER piss off the adept with a magic rating of 26!!!

Cyber characters are limited in 'power' by their essence score. Once that essence hits 0, they die. So, essence and cyberware quality levels set your cap. And once that essence is used up, no more cyber even if you have billions in the bank...

Sunmary,

Adepts are slow to power, with no limits.
Cyber, is the 'fast and dirty' way to power, but has a built in limitation on just how much you can have....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2996
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #8 on: <04-19-16/1301:22> »
Adepts are slow to power, with no limits.
Cyber, is the 'fast and dirty' way to power, but has a built in limitation on just how much you can have....

During the course of normal play though, that's not likely to ever come up.  It would take decades in-game for that sort of thing to happen.  Maybe less, but still, it's not something you should really consider while making a character.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #9 on: <04-19-16/1320:39> »
Adepts are slow to power, with no limits.
Cyber, is the 'fast and dirty' way to power, but has a built in limitation on just how much you can have....

During the course of normal play though, that's not likely to ever come up.  It would take decades in-game for that sort of thing to happen.  Maybe less, but still, it's not something you should really consider while making a character.

Yes, it all depends on how long you keep the character active.... my 3xperience is generally 100 to 300 karma before something usually happens to that character.

BUT, if you do manage to play for a long time, you REALLY get to notice the 'power gap' between awakened and mundane characters.

In my high karma game, the mundane sammy and even rigger have a very hard time matching the output of the physical adept, let alone my mage. (But for mages, that's expected more..) But, the mundanes hit their 'peak' long before my mage and the adept... Simply because mundanes rely money for 'advancement' in power, and use Karma for skill increases. Awakened just have Karma, which leads them into an endless circle of 'What to raise?? Magic? Initiation? Skill? Attributes?'....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2996
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #10 on: <04-19-16/1437:12> »
I admit I do have players who look at the money they make and say "Why bother?  I'd have to do a dozen missions to upgrade my stuff, and the amount of Karma it takes me to get +1 to a skill gives our Mage or Adept a new powerful ability."  Though they tend to complain a lot in general.

Which, by the way, is why I don't play with the "Money to Karma and Karma to Money" thing.  It trivializes it too much, and means if I give more money out, the mages just blow past everyone, because the ascetic Adept just spend all his nuyen on having twice as much Karma as anyone and waaaay outgrows the group.  2000 Nuyen for 1 Karma is too cheap.  The reverse works in character creation, but there's a 10 Karma limit for a reason.  It's not supposed to be constantly available.
« Last Edit: <04-19-16/1443:56> by firebug »
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #11 on: <04-19-16/1517:07> »
There is a reason when I say street samurai uncapitalized I'm referring to either Street Samurai or Combat Adapts. Functionally they are the same. In the long run usually the scariest combat monsters are adepts that sacrifice 1 essence for high end bioware, gaining +4 to agility, +1 to all other physical stats, and at least a smartlink (all delta grade and around 3/4 of a million nueyen). If you save enough karma for when you get your first 'ware you can by back your magic, assuming you initiated at least once.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Xexanoth

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 117
« Reply #12 on: <04-19-16/1545:49> »
2000 Nuyen for 1 Karma is too cheap.  The reverse works in character creation, but there's a 10 Karma limit for a reason.

Who says that the price for buying Karma is the same as selling it? ;)
Everything has a price after all, and if you could just change your Nuyen/Karma without paying the a fee, what kind of world would that be?.
Besides you actually have to put in work/time feeding orphans or whatever, karma and nuyen have to be earned.

And back to topic:
Cyber has diversity(general boosts,multiple/modifing cyberarms for different purposes etc..) and a lot of "cheap" boosts, while adepts become REALLY good in what they do.

It's also a matter of Nuyen vs Karma, whatever you pick, you can spend one relatively freely while closely watching the other.