[PJ]

I decided to rework the skills and skill groups.  Sorry I don't know how to make the below a spoiler:

AGILITY:  Armed Combat, Athletics, Escape Artist, Gunnery, Heavy Weapons, Locksmith, Palming, Small Arms, Sneaking, Targeting, Unarmed Combat, Exotic Weapon
BODY: Diving, Free Fall      STRENGTH: Athletics     WILLPOWER: Astral Combat, Survival
REACTION: Pilot Aircraft, Pilot Ground Craft, Pilot Watercraft, Pilot Exotic
CHARISMA: Animal Handling, Con, Impersonation, Intimidation, Leadership, Negotiation
INTUITION: Assensing, Disguise, Language, Tracking, Interest, Street
LOGIC: Aeronautics Mechanic, Arcana, Armorer, Automotive Mechanic, Biotechnology, Chemistry, Computer, Cybertechnology, Demolitions, First Aid, Forgery, Hardware, Industrial Mechanic, Nautical Mechanic, Software, Academic, Professional
MAGIC: Conjuring, Enchanting, Sorcery
RESONANCE: Tasking

ACTING: Con, Disguise, Impersonation
BIOTECH: Biotechnology, Cybertechnology, Medicine
CLOSE COMBAT: Armed Combat, Targeting, Unarmed Combat
COMBAT ENGINEER: Armorer, Demolitions, Industrial Mechanic
ELECTRONICS: Computer, Hardware, Software
ENGINEERING: Aeronautics Mechanic, Automotive Mechanic, Nautical Mechanic
EXTREME SPORTS: Athletics, Diving, Free Fall
FIREARMS: Gunnery, Heavy Weapons, Small Arms
INFLUENCE: Intimidation, Leadership, Negotiation
METAPHYSICS: Arcana, Assensing, Astral Combat
OUTDOORS: Animal Handling, Survival, Tracking
PILOT: Pilot Aircraft, Pilot Ground Craft, Pilot Watercraft
THIEVERY: Escape Artist, Locksmith, Palming

Artisan, Performance, and the surgery aspect of Medicine are Knowledges
Archery and Throwing are now Targeting
Automatics is part of Heavy Weapons
First Aid is part of Medicine
Long Arms and Pistols are now Small Arms
Gymnastics, Running, Swimming are now Athletics
Instruction is part of Leadership
Navigation is part of Survival
Cybercombat is part of Computer
Electronic Warfare and Hacking are part of Software
Pilot Aerospace is part of Pilot Aircraft
Pilot Walker is part of Pilot Ground Craft

Etiquette is now an Attribute Only test, Charisma + Intuition
Perception is now an Attribute Only test, Intuition + Willpower (+ Logic to Observe In Detail)

Defaulting Attribute -3, appropriate Skill -2, appropriate Skill Group -1

[Blue Rose]

Whenever this argument crops up, I like to remind people, that you can default on skills - especially knowledge skills -  and you can substitute skills at a penalty. So you really only need to be good in your main field. The peripheral knowledge you accumulate can easily be simulated by taking a -3 to the test.

True you can do that and if you enjoy playing that way have fun but like I said I personally choke on that attitude. My mage picking up  . . .  an assault rifle and trying to substitute long arms because i'm bracing it against my shoulder as an emergency "I don't want to die" action sure but just doing it as a basic thing on a regular gaming basis for skills that are to me universal. I hate it as I really do find it spoils a lot of my fun. I'm not trying to play a doctor who style character of I know everything about everything but I do want to have my mage be viable and still have some basic knowledge of cooking, have learnt how to swim and drive a car etc. I know its per the rules and like I said I've accepted I'm in the minority about this but its a basic difference in how I see things I don't think I'll ever get over. Rating 0 is untrained and in the little sidebar is described as

"The default level of knowledge obtained through interaction with society and the Matrix. Though untrained, you have a general awareness of the skill, and occasionally may even be able to fake it."

and its here where that argument comes up. The idea of rating zero drive ground vehicle being "Drive normally and only need to default if doing something out of the ordinary" to me rings false both because of my own experiences when learning to drive and the description quoted above. Yet that's the normal one people take as you said of don't put points in it rating 0 is drive normally and default if you need to "fake" a stunt. Its why a teenager who's only seen driving on tv/movies/games and via chatting with friends still has to LEARN to drive with a qualified driver in the car (here anyway) to ensure they don't have as many accidents.

Same with all the other "life skills" that to me should be at a 1-4 for most character's regardless of specialization unless they're doing a lifestyle where they didn't grow up in this kind of society e.g. a shifter or a sinless street rat. Swimming, artisan, computer use, drive ground vehicle and the slightly more specific but still largley useful ones like first aid, etiquette, negotiation or first aid. Sure they wont be 4+ skilled professional much less a 6+ sought out and name their price one but any runner who's grown up around the matrix would in my opinion be at least a 1 beginer in computer use or have picked up a 1/2 beginner/novice in negotiation if only to ensure the face doesn't negotiate a 10,000 yen run take a 8,000 yen cut and split the remaining 2,000 four way's or to handle buying their own supplies.

Still no point arguing about it I've accepted there's the majority view of . . .

6+ in one or two skills and 0/default in the rest.

and my view shared by a few others of. . . .

4+ in your specializations and 1-3 in the other skills to fill out general lifestyle things you pick up like learning basic driving skills. It just means I have to be careful what games I play in and ensure the DM isn't starting the characters off against the 12-18 die pool range as the basic opposition.

EDIT
I think part of the problem is the knowledge skills to be honest. A basic high school graduate these day's is going to have knowledge of mathmatics, chemistry, literature, possibly a second or third language, electives like chemistry, biology, acting (which is active skills but we did get some theory), home ec (artisan another active skill), some schools offer mechanical courses. Try to make a runner who has that background AND the running skills they need and you start to struggle or at least I do. Sure its fine if your going with a 0 is what everyone know's and default the stunts but if your not then its almost impossible to make especially if your going with a sam who needs combat stats more than mental ones and may only have 8 or 10 knowledge points. Hmmm I might start a character creation thread tommorow on what a typical high school graduate should have and see how easy it is to make just that.

Other than maybe a language, you do not need ANY knowledge skills to represent a high school education. In fact, NOT having that basic knowledge is what requires a mechanical representation in the form of the uneducated quality. There is no skill roll required for a normal, educated adult to calculate the area of a square, or identify a rabbit and know it eats plants.

Likewise, having zero ranks in swim does not mean you don't know how to swim. If you drop a baby in a pool, they will swim. It's a natural instinct. But most people avoid swimming anywhere there are significant currents or rough seas because most people, while they CAN swim, are not skilled swimmers and they know it.

There are numerous other things that are basic, normal life skills that you do not need a skill or a roll to do.  If you haven't used GridGuide all your life, driving is one of them. Sure, it takes some time to learn, but so does walking and so does potty training. Would you require a diaper for characters who don't take Knowledge: Potty Training?

Rank 1 in drive would be more like if you spent a day or two at one of those driving courses where they do the Nya like slicking the course so you can practice recovering from slipping on ice.

Artisan is not an every day skill, either. Anyone can pick up a book or turn on a show and put together a decent meal. It won't be anything fancy, but you don't need to spend karma to boil pasta and add sauce and meat for a decent meal.  The Artisan skill, though is actually very significant. A single rank is a broad and extensive schooling on the arts. All of them. If you have Artisan, you're not just a cook. You're a cook and a painter and a carpenter and more.

The mindset that you need to spend zots on every single aspect of existing gets in the way of actually making your character into... anything.

Common knowledge. It's a thing. Doesn't cost anything.

[Wakshaani]

As for swimming, not everyone has the instinct. I've never been able to learn, for instance. Put me in water and I go down like I ate a Devil Fruit.

[Reaver]

Have to agree with Blue Rose here. A lot of skills in SR, you as a person just couldn't learn without some other skills along the way.....

Demolitions is a prime example. In the real world, you wouldn't learn jack shit about defusing a bomb OR building one without background knowledge in electronics, physics, chemistry, mathmatics, engineering and kissing asses goodbye. Yet in SR, you just grab demolitions, throw a few skill points into it and you're dufusing nuclear dirty bombs hardwired with triple reduntant deadman switches in less then 5 weeks!


Sometimes, you just got to take a step back and realise its a game. Not a life simulator. A game.

Enjoy it!

[Senko]

This as I said is where we differ. Blue Rose plays it as rank 0 = basic knowledge, me as rank 0 = know of it. It's a subtle difference but an important one. For your example of demolitions if I where making a character with that I would want ranks in those skills. It's just a fundamental difference in play style.

I think I will take the suggestion and try to stay myself put an actual mechanical number to the skills I've picked up in high school and real life. When I make the thread I'd appreciate Blue Rose or someone like them posting their stat's in there. I think it'd be interesting and possibly helpful to see how big a difference in representing a normal person based on our different views of what the various ranks and functions mean in terms of character creation.

EDIT
Actually comparing different peoples probably not the best way to go about it. Anyone with blue roses views willing to help me with this. We both stat the same person. . ..

White collar family, normal school education, college educated business degree, mid 20's or so

Not to make a great runner but make them as I think the different skills and levels could help people get an idea of your majority view vs the view some of us have.

[Beta]

The way another game put itwasitwas, roughly, the skills and relationships on your character sheet are not everything and everyone you know, but rather the ones that let you really do things to the game world.  So sure you might know some chemistry but you don't remember enough details to quite remember how to make things with any confidence. Etc.

[Senko]

The problem is this attitude there is a matter usually of I know how to cook even though there's no cooking skill not I know how to sail a boat even though my character sheet specifically says I don't. That is they also apply it to the skills on their sheets e.g. treating a 0 drive as basic every day driving not I've seen it on the movies. That is you can do chemistry at 0 and "default to whip up a chemical compound to hide the taste of arsenic. Rather than an I see it you know that chemistry 0 means you know they do things with chemicals and can fake doing that by pouring various chemicals into a container and hoping they don't give you away by blowing up.

EDIT
I think it's one of two fundamental differences between the playstyles how you view a zero rank in a skill. One group sees it as basic level of skills to USE in day to day living the other maybe you can fake it up to a point having heard of it but faking is not the same as general use. You put me behind a boat or a plane and I could fake a few things before the inevitable crash that to me is a 0. Others treat it as a 0 drive ground vehicles is having your licence and knowing how to change gears accelerate, brake, when to do so, turn corners and so on all the normal day to day parts of driving.

[Blue Rose]

Senko, it really seems like you are creating a problem that isn't in the rules, and then complaining about the problem you created.

What you describe is not skill 0.  It's more like being unaware of a skill.  And 'unaware' does not, despite the name, mean you do not know a skill exists.  If you're uncouth, you still know what manners are, you just aren't any good at it.

There are disadvantages that make you as uninformed as you describe.  Uneducated, Uncouth, Incompetent.  If you aren't one of those, you have the basic, common knowledge.  If you aren't uneducated, you've gone to school and you've learned basic science, math, history.  Even if you don't have the Spanish skill, anyone who went to school in the CAS probably knows, "Me llamo Maria," and, "Donde esta el bano?"

You're making this way harder on yourself than it has to be, hermano/a, and the rules don't really support you.

[MijRai]

I'm on the side where having a skill Untrained means you generally can't do it under pressure unless it is something intuitive/some other mitigating factor (like directions on the box).  If you don't have any points in it, why should we assume you can do it at a base proficiency?  Almost everyone has seen a sailboat go across the water, but that doesn't mean they can default and operate it.  And Senko has a good point on the car bit; I would never allow someone to just default on driving on a day-to-day basis, because no points in the skill means you don't know jack.  That includes not knowing traffic laws, or having the knowledge to get your license.  It doesn't mean you can't own a vehicle; you just use GridGuide like most folks do. 

It might not be the rules as written, but it's how I'd do things. 

[Blue Rose]

Driving is a special case due to GridGuide, sure, you could argue that one.  I'd say basic ability to drive day-to-day is the default.

That said, all this talk of needing to buy all these skills and spend all these skill points and karma just to be a basic member of society instead of, you know, already being a member of society with basic knowledge of your world and the basic skills required to be a part of your world?  Well, now you're making a serious problem.

You are a shadowrunner.  You have to be a shadowrunner.  That's the game.  You will spend zots to be a shadowrunner who does shadowrunning things.  If you also MUST spend zots on math, science, biology, anatomy, music, economics, this, that, the other just to have the bare minimum basic level of knowledge expected from a person in the world?  Either now you don't have zots to spend on actually making your character interesting and fleshed out, or now you don't have zots to be a shadowrunner.

Just like lifestyle subsumes a lot of the petty couple nuyen here, couple nuyen there cost of living sorts of things, common knowledge subsumes that baseline common knowledge, freeing you up for things that actually warrant the accounting and matter to the character and the game.

Senko, your method makes characters less interesting.

[Senko]

I don't feel it makes them less interesting I feel its a problem with character creation especially given the sheer number of knowledge skills you get with life modules it seems to me how the dev's want us to play. As you said either you don't have enough to make a realistic character or you don't have enough to make it a runner and that is the probelem with character creation as I see it. Especially given the min max approach that most people feel is necessary for the game (and I'm not arguing that method doesn't make sense given the way character creation/improvement works).

Like I said I originally did try to make characters that were in possession of the skills I felt they needed and basically got told they were so unviable in a game there was no point making them so instead I'm making ones that are not fun for me because I have to leave off skills I feel they should have or that I want them to have.

Its why I want to try this two people  make one character idea because while I've always been aware of the whole 6+ for 20+ dice pools at character creation attitude the posts in this thread have really gotten me thinking the disconnect on just what a 0 skill actually is and how much knowledge goes unstated may be an even bigger one for my kind of player. So I really am hoping someone will take me up on this and make a "normal person" build to compare to mine so I can see just how large that gap really is.

[Blue Rose]

But... it's not a problem, other than the one you made yourself.

*Facepalms.*

Anyways, getting a knowledge skill takes one karma.  Getting a standard skill costs two.  If you can't fit in the essential skills at those prices, you have an unreasonable expectation for how broad your character's skill base is.

If you want to build up or build out, that's what character advancement is for.

And neither I nor anyone else is saying you need skills at 6+ or dice pools of 20+.  Just because you're not wasting points on potty training does not mean you only have one skill.

[Senko]

Considering people still too frequently call Shadowrun "MagicRun" and complain about how OP magic is... 

It tends to be perception, IMO.  I've played a couple mages (Straight up spellslinger, and an Alchemy focused mage) and both were pretty viable but not overpowered.  But again, it's perception. 

Too many folks go in assuming you have to have 6's in appropriate skills to even be playable, and that you have to have high attributes.  But a character with 8-10 dice pool for their primary skill or two is supposed to be a skilled, viable character.  YOu don't need to start at 12+ and work your way up.

However, this depends a good deal on your GM and what he's throwing at you as well.  Your skills only need to be proportionate to the enemy.  So if you're feeling overwhelmed or like you're not useful because you don't have enough dice to regularly beat your opponents and challenges, talk to the GM, because he may simply be setting your thresholds and enemies at too high a level.

The game should be a challenge.  But it should also be fun.  It's the GMs job to find that balance.

People do say you need 6's and your primary stats at creation should be 16+ especially on the character creation forums here but fine I'll let it drop since its obvious you wont indulge my little experiment.

[Rosa]

As i said in my earlier post in this thread, the Whole min/maxing attitude that a lot of people have towards character creation probably stems from the fact that most campaigns tends to be fairly shortlived, so you want to get the most out of the character you make, not make a real life realistic person that you won't be using very long anyways.

If you have a reasonable expectation of playing a long campaign, then Things like that becomes more important as characters invariably gets fleshed more out.

But the OP's question was....Is the skill diffusion working as intended? Well the skill diffusion sort of forces you to become a 1-2 trick pony for most games, unless as i said you can expect the campaign to be long and therefore will need to be more versatile, so if that was the intention then yes it's working, if it wasn't the intention then no.

[Blue Rose]

Senko, you do realize you are quoting someone who says you don't need those 20+ dice, and does so relative to a much lower and more attainable number, right?

And I still fail to see the point of your experiment. The character creation rules are not made for wageslaves. It'd be a couple minor skills at unnoteworthy levels and a little knowledge, not spending most of the resources.

Rosa: I strongly disagree. The mindset that if there are twelve magic skills, you must be good at all of them instead of having a dynamic ability profile, the idea that you can't have weaknesses?  THAT is what makes for shallower and less interesting characters.