[DragginSPADE]

Wow, lots of replies since I last checked.  Makes me wish I could hang out online more often than once or twice a week right now.

As for the main point folks have been discussing, I kind of split the difference between Senko and Blue Rose.  Rules for defaulting are in the game for a reason, along with the guidance that you only need to roll for important things, not driving to the grocery store.  But at the same time, we kind of have to assume such because of how few skill points there usually are in character creation vs how many skills there are.  Ultimately I would like to be able to make a well rounded character at creation but there's rarely enough points for everything.  At least with knowledge skills you have some room to show a character's knowledge or interests outside of how well they Shadowrun.  (Free points in Knowledge skills in character creation is one of the changes in later editions that I like the most.)

As for other points made, I'm also in the "prefers long campaigns" camp, with two under my belt that stretched for 3-4 years each before I moved away from my group.  But even in those long games in earlier editions that had no cap on max skills, I never saw a character get above skill 9 in anything.  After a certain point you just weren't getting enough benefit from one more skill point to make it worth spending that much karma on.

And Wak... first, thanks for answering in this thread.  I know everyone's got different opinions regarding balance in shadowrun, so here's my 2 nuyen:  PLEASE don't nerf magic because you think it is "too cheap" or anything like that.  I LIKE magic in Shadowrun, it's my favorite part of the game. If the designers feel like there's a real (vs perceived) balance problem then please fix it by boosting tech, not nerfing magic. 

[Wakshaani]

I have no power to do that unless asked from above, so you're safe.

My biggest problem right now is with social adepts. Physical adepts being on par with street samurai is fine... different approach, roughly the same result. Mages have always been a thing, and while there are one or two spell issues or summoning issues, by and large, just fine. They hit hard or sneak well, handle medical, etc.

The traditional Face, however, has no chance when social adepts are around. The adept does everything the face does, and better, without a downside. That's a balance problem and eliminates an archetype, so, it's something that I'd like to address. Probably couldn't be dealt with until the distant future, but, 5th ed is all about "Choices have costs" and "There is no one best way", so, having a clearcut "This is better" is bad.

My other bit is wanting to make magic a bit more rich, in terms of depth, and getting people to embrace the magicalness of Magic in a way that we don't do just now.

(Mind you, in my perfect world, there'd be no Magic attribute, but that's a whole other discussion.)

[DragginSPADE]

I have no power to do that unless asked from above, so you're safe.

My biggest problem right now is with social adepts. Physical adepts being on par with street samurai is fine... different approach, roughly the same result. Mages have always been a thing, and while there are one or two spell issues or summoning issues, by and large, just fine. They hit hard or sneak well, handle medical, etc.

The traditional Face, however, has no chance when social adepts are around. The adept does everything the face does, and better, without a downside. That's a balance problem and eliminates an archetype, so, it's something that I'd like to address. Probably couldn't be dealt with until the distant future, but, 5th ed is all about "Choices have costs" and "There is no one best way", so, having a clearcut "This is better" is bad.

My other bit is wanting to make magic a bit more rich, in terms of depth, and getting people to embrace the magicalness of Magic in a way that we don't do just now.

(Mind you, in my perfect world, there'd be no Magic attribute, but that's a whole other discussion.)

Fair enough.  Keep in mind that I'm a grognard who hasn't had a real chance to play since 3rd edition.  Adepts were still physads then, the idea of them filling social roles was barely getting started.  My magicians were always full magicians.  (Speaking of which, I'm kinda baffled why Mystic Adepts seem to be so popular on the boards right now.  I get that they get adept abilities along with mage abilities for MUCH less disadvantage than they had in earlier editions, but they can't ASTRALLY PROJECT.  Astral Projection is AWESOME.)

[Blue Rose]

Astral projection also leaves you very vulnerable, and when you can get full access to adept powers instead?  Well, that's pretty huge.

Also, mystic adepts can astrally project.  With sufficient application of Shade.

[DragginSPADE]

I have no idea what Shade is.  If it's some kind of BAD that lets folks Astrally Project who can't normally then it probably also comes with a nasty drawback or two. 

And yeah.  Astrally projecting makes you vulnerable, which is why any mage worth the name does it from a safe place with wards and/or spirit guards unless in dire extremis situations.  But man, is it FUN.  And so very, very useful when used right. 

[Blue Rose]

That said, you can get a lot of the benefits with few of the drawbacks by letting spirits take care of that for you.

[Senko]

I have no power to do that unless asked from above, so you're safe.

My biggest problem right now is with social adepts. Physical adepts being on par with street samurai is fine... different approach, roughly the same result. Mages have always been a thing, and while there are one or two spell issues or summoning issues, by and large, just fine. They hit hard or sneak well, handle medical, etc.

The traditional Face, however, has no chance when social adepts are around. The adept does everything the face does, and better, without a downside. That's a balance problem and eliminates an archetype, so, it's something that I'd like to address. Probably couldn't be dealt with until the distant future, but, 5th ed is all about "Choices have costs" and "There is no one best way", so, having a clearcut "This is better" is bad.

My other bit is wanting to make magic a bit more rich, in terms of depth, and getting people to embrace the magicalness of Magic in a way that we don't do just now.

(Mind you, in my perfect world, there'd be no Magic attribute, but that's a whole other discussion.)

Huh in my perfect world it'd replace the second stat so you'd have willpower/magic but that's just me.

As for mystic adepts they have some very nice options but I just can't personally accept the permanent loss of astral projection. Purely a taste thing but I love the whole astral projection part of my mages and even for the large boosts from the various powers I can't bring myself to give it up so I remain a pure mage.

As for making magic deeper I think part of the issue is spells are limited at charcter creation and cost 5 karma per spell aftewards so spells that are more thematic/non run related spells like clean earth/fire, healthy glow, catalog or other things that aren't a spell yet but should be well within the limits of shadowrun magic like repel normal insects, find lost items, cleaning an object (such as a computer fan that's gotten dusty), changing the apparent flavour of food are never actually developed because the cost for benefit is simply not there.

[HobDobson]

As for mystic adepts they have some very nice options but I just can't personally accept the permanent loss of astral projection. Purely a taste thing but I love the whole astral projection part of my mages and even for the large boosts from the various powers I can't bring myself to give it up so I remain a pure mage.

Astral overwatch and shadowing can be very useful (as well as risky, but that's shadowrunning), no question. However, if the magician isn't very sneaky, there are multiple spirit types that could do as good or better job. The player just has to be familiar with the capabilities the spirit offers.

At worst, there's another NPC to roleplay with, or inject more flavor to the ongoing activity.

"Hey boss, the car you sent me after blew up real good before I got to it. Anything else you have in mind instead?"

"Let's take a look, shall we? Oh my. Look at all that flammable paper. I'd like to see it burn"

"For the last service, do you see all the cars in that impound lot? Don't get caught, but have fun with whatever strikes your fancy."

Spirits of Fire can be fun 

As for making magic deeper I think part of the issue is spells are limited at charcter creation and cost 5 karma per spell aftewards so spells that are more thematic/non run related spells like clean earth/fire, healthy glow, catalog or other things that aren't a spell yet but should be well within the limits of shadowrun magic like repel normal insects, find lost items, cleaning an object (such as a computer fan that's gotten dusty), changing the apparent flavour of food are never actually developed because the cost for benefit is simply not there.

A couple of those are in SR4A, unless I've got the wrong Street Magic. If they aren't in SR5, because the spells needed for a run should be a priority when working against text space constraints, there likely are ways to convert them.

However, I'd really hate to be knocked over stunned by drain just to clean the toilet bowl (a candidate for Sterilize if there ever was one!) Yes, reagents are a thing, but if I have that much cash to blow on housework, why would I be running the shadows? Casting at F1 could work, but that's no fun. And being confronted by a backed-up loo on the hung-over morning after a very drunk night before  ... would indeed be grounds for overcasting 

There's probably a good reason for none of the GMs I game with being interested in running any "A Day In The Life" sessions.

Assuming the magician isn't enough of a wierdness magnet to subconsciously generate minor knots of magic to do such things (or, to blow the toilet up), cleaning/cooking/etc. could be the sort of spells one runs across while researching something useful. Unless the outcome is mechanically critical, it just gets done, instead of costing karma.

[Hobbes]

The traditional Face, however, has no chance when social adepts are around. The adept does everything the face does, and better, without a downside. That's a balance problem and eliminates an archetype, so, it's something that I'd like to address. Probably couldn't be dealt with until the distant future, but, 5th ed is all about "Choices have costs" and "There is no one best way", so, having a clearcut "This is better" is bad.

Boring meta crap incoming. 

Four flavors of faces, Mundane, Adept, Mage, Mystic Adept.  Mundanes and Adepts have less access to Charisma buffs, pretty much Novacoke and Narco is the way to go for them to get Charisma buffs.  Mages and Mysads can usually find a way to sustain a +4 Charisma buff if they want. 

Skill buffs, Adepts and Mystic Adepts have access to powers that increase skills that Mundanes and Mages simply don't have access too.  It's not that Mundane characters can't get bonuses to skills, its that Adepts have all the same options plus several other, relatively cheap options. 

IMO you'd need to introduce a cyber/bio/whatever Essence using Augment that increases Charisma.  You probably want a couple of options, one that stacks, one that doesn't, ect, ect.  Choices with costs.

IMO the other thing you'd need to introduce is an Augmented Skill Cap.  This way an Adept can't stack a Mentor Spirit, Increase Skill, Adept Powers, Fancy Suit,  Positive Qualities, ect, ect.   Keep it consistent with a +4.  Mundane Faces can easily hit a +4 in a skill, give them access to a Charisma Augments and you've now got parity in dice pools at the top end.  I can't think of what else an Augmented Skill Cap would break.  Physical Adepts probably?  Anything else that gets more that +4 in a skill is a corner case.  (Catlike, Reflex Recorder, and Chameleon Suit for Sneaking, honestly can't think of anything else off the top of my head?)

Teamwork buffs can stand outside the Augmented Caps to give you a mechanical option to stack a buff without hitting the Augmented cap. 

MySads and Mages will still likely be "Better" as they're full blown Casters/Summoners still.  But you can put together a Mundane Face that has comparable Social Skill dice pools and is a Samurai lite as a secondary.  Then you've moved your balance issue back to Mage vs Mundane, at least at a 10,000 foot view. 

[Wakshaani]

A big thing would be to bring all modifiers into a sort of focus. A blanket "Regardless of the source... magical, mechanical, or chemical, you can only get +X. After that, you get nothing." ... then you have different ways of reaching it, but you can't just pile 'em on all day long.

It'd snuff the older "Cyber-Adept" combinations, and allow a bit more freeform in design, most likely.

Regardless, there need to be limits and a fair playing field for everyone.

[Hobbes]

Yeah, lowering the overall ceiling makes less optimized builds more viable.  Or perceived to be more viable anyway.

Also makes writing modules easier   

[Senko]

@HobDobson
Its the flavour that I like about astral projection not the mechanical uses just floating as an astral projection at the bottom of the sea or in what remains of the amazon jungle as a break from the mundane day to day life.

@Wakshaani
I could have sworn there was a blanket +4 bonus maximum somehwere I have to try and find it.

[Blue Rose]

That +4 limit only applies to augmenting attributes.

[Rosa]

Well if they suddenly introduce a arbitrary skillcap of +4 into the game, then congrats they've just broken the foci rules, the initiation rules...and probably more.

As was suggested by one of the previous posters, buffing tech or introducing some new ware would make sense as you don't start changing rules which will suddenly require a fundamental changing of the whole game system.

[PJ]

Speaking of Skills and Life Modules, has anyone allowed some customizing regarding them?  Swapping some of the Skills for others.  I don't see this working for all Modules (the corporations and military are going to train you as they see fit), but I could see a lot of room for others.