[condottiere]

Orks multiply like bunnies; they'd need natural predators.

I would like to establish when they are expected to join the rat race, which unless you have that college interlude, I'd put at eighteen for humans, and nine for Orks, when is retirement age, when can they draw a pension.

[Reaver]

you are forgetting that its a "human" centric world

What are the labour laws for your area? (a simple google search will tell you.) Well, those laws haven't really changed. To give you an example, this is the BC labour laws for hiring children:
"
Hiring children
9  (1) A person must not employ a child under 15 years of age unless the person has obtained the written consent of the child's parent or guardian.

(2) A person must not employ a child under 12 years of age without the director's permission.

(3) On permitting the employment of a child under 12 years of age, the director may set the conditions of employment for the child.

(4) An employer must comply with the conditions of employment set under subsection (3)."
http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/document/ID/freeside/00_96113_01

So by BC law, my company can not hire anyone less than 15 years of age, unless we have a note their parents. (not an issue)
If they are under 12 years of age, I have to contact the Ministry for Family Services, and receive a WRITTEN permission from the Director's office to employ them (Good luck! Takes about 3 to 5 months when I tried to get my daughter a part time job in the office for the summer I had her). And even then, they can set such random shit, it's pointless.In my daughter's case, she was only allowed to work 2 hours a day to a max of 10 hours a week. Could not start before 10am and could not work past 6pm.


Now, how does this tie into SR?
Easy, many of these laws are still in place in SR, and while some people are fighting to change it, there are so many groups with much bigger pockets and much more clout that are resisting the changes. (Humanis Policlub is a BIG one in this field, and remember, they are a political party - they actually have people IN the government!)

And remember, just because at 9 years old, an ork has the mass of a 18 yr old human, they still have the mental capacity of a 9 year old. How many 9 year olds you know that have the responsibility and maturity to actually hold a job that isn't delivering newspapers?


When is retirement age? 65 same as it has always been. (or if you buy into the those 'freedom 55' commercials, 55. Yet every single person I know who signed up for it, are still working in their 60s.....)
Pensions run off of time worked with a company that offers them. Usually requiring 25 to 35 years of service to collect the Full amount, which the possibility to collect a partial amount usually after 15+ years worked. (varies)
(check with your employer, when do you get the full amount or a partial amount?)

So what does this mean for Orks? They get the screw-over. They'll die of old age before retirement, and they can't work long enough to even get a partial pension. You are not getting a job that offers a pension without education, which means completing high-school and getting a degree. Remember, Unions were effectively Crushed out between 1997 with the Trucker Strike in NYC which lead to hundreds dying, the rise of the Mega-corps and Extraterritorality agreements.

Starting to see why Orks are the primary residents of Barrens and low income areas?

[condottiere]

I believe there is an exception for family run businesses, and may include close relatives, not just your own children.

But I don't think most Ork teenagers want to be carrot farmers.

If they can't find work legally, and if they are underage, this may seem the perfect favela scenario, where you have easily led enforcers who are big as a house, and get sent to juvie if they're caught, and can't get the death penalty for more extreme crimes; possibly, early release.

[Reaver]

I believe there is an exception for family run businesses, and may include close relatives, not just your own children.

But I don't think most Ork teenagers want to be carrot farmers.

If they can't find work legally, and if they are underage, this may seem the perfect favela scenario, where you have easily led enforcers who are big as a house, and get sent to juvie if they're caught, and can't get the death penalty for more extreme crimes; possibly, early release.

There could be a family exception in some areas, as every state and province in NA has their own labor laws. (There is no exception in BC. Under 12? Need the ministry's approval.) I know Alberta has a 'traditional work' clause that is aimed at farming families... until the NDP just about fucked that up epically.

Probably right about the favela effect. Orks are bigger and stronger then humans, so they make excellent muscle. And lets face it, when you are so marginalized, and the deck is stacked against you badly, crime really does seem like the best option for many in that situation...

[condottiere]

Leaving aside humans, with elves, you can push the age of majority way into the future, since they will have plenty of time to admire close up the grindstone when they have to put their nose on it.

With Orks, you're going to have two issues, age of majority, and age of responsibility.

If a nine year old Ork killed two policemen during the course of an armed robbery, should he be tried as an adult? Is he responsible for his actions? Will he be jailed in an adult penitentiary? Will he be given the death sentence, assuming it's an option, or life without parole? Will there be an attempt at rehabilitation?

It's mentioned that matriarchies are a big component in Ork society, since a considerable proportion of the fathers spend an inordinate amount of time locked up.

Do you adjust lifetime sentences for Orks?

[condottiere]

Drink alcohol – 21
Drive a car (with a license) – 16 in most states
Serve in the military – 18
Attend school (upper required limit) – 16
See R-rated movies – 17
Consent to sex – 16 in most states
Get married (without parental consent) – 18 in most states
Get an abortion (without parental consent) – 18 in many states
Make personal finance decisions – 18
Rent a car – 25

I doubt many Orks will abstain or wait until they're twenty one to drink alcohol.

Joyriding is very likely a popular Orkish pastime.

A military career would serve both sides, the Orks get a disciplined environment where they are permitted, even encouraged, to commit controlled violence, and the military doesn't have to pay out a pension for very long. They might not be allowed to drive automobiles when off duty, but tht's probably not an issue at other times.

[Reaver]

I wish I could remember the book (WAR! I think) that talks about the Aztlan soldier breeding program...

Basically, they were offering rewards to women who would agree to be artificially insemenated and then turn the child over to the state. Amazingly, a super high percentage were Orks. Why? Because of an Ork increased strength and endurance, and their decreased lifespan!
They wanted a throw away army that they would never had to worry about the long term care of...


And as to the legal ages you listed, those probably are still on the books. And probably still enforced. As I have been trying to tell you repeatedly, the laws HAVE NOT changed to reflect an Ork's increased growth rate.

Is it fair? No. But it is still the law. And everytime an Ork is caught breaking those Laws, there is racist organization waiting to point a finger and say "See? They are all criminals! They don't respect the law!"

Laws don't change themselves. They take the Will of Government to change. Followed by several rounds of voting and debate by the various levels and chambers of government. And all it takes is for a single lost vote at any one level of government to kill it.

For example, under the Canadain Parlement the steps are.
1: proposal by a single MP.
2: must be seconded in the house of Commons.
3: a debate is then opened.
4: a draft is written.
5: draft is voted on and debated.
6: law is written.
7: law is read and appoved by vote in the house of Commons.
8: The Senate now votes to accept or defeat.
9: is Approved, the law is passed to the Prime Minister's Office for offical signing.
10: A single Constitutional challenge can be brought forth by anyone (including a private citizen) and the supreme Court of Canada will/can weigh in and strike the Bill, forcing Parlement to scrape, rewrite, or invoke a 'Decree' (basically, Parlement over-rides the constitution and enshrines into law, against our living Law of Rights and Freedoms <Canadian Constitution equivilant>. And has happened twice in the formation of our Country. The first was the FLQ terrorist crisis of the 1970s and then again in 1986 for the Goods and Services Tax).

A single failed vote in any of those 10 steps kills a Bill/Law or amendment to a law. And believe it or not, the US system is even more complex, which more avenues for defeat.

And lets face it, in SR, governments have had a lot more on their plate then to figure out if and what changes should be made for Orks.... Let alone the fact that there is a large vocal and powerful people how actively seek to NOT allow changes that aid the meta-human condition.

And yet again, just cause an Ork ages physically faster, there is no accelerated mental growth. Again, even though an Ork of 10 years of age is PHYSICALLY the size of a grown human, MENTALLY they are still a 10 year. EMOTIONALLY they are a 10 year old.

Do you think you 10 year old child should:

1: Have a legal right to get shitfaced, AND face the lefal consiquences of their intoxicated actions?

2: have the legal right and tesponsibility to operate a motor vehicle?

3: Go off to war, be maimed killed, mutilated or killed, and to kill, maim, and mutilate an other?

4: constent to a sexual relationship.

5: making imporant finacisl decisions


Because that is what you are saying. You are saying you have NO problem with your child doing these things, and LACKING the protections the laws give to children....


Think HARD before you reply.

[dougch]

I do not approve of that last post. Keep it civil you dolt.

[Reaver]

Trust me. That WAS civil.

But if you preferr, I could use language I DO generally use for people who seem to be willfully continously missing a point and refuses to address that point.

A simple search of my post history, or asking some old time members will tell you the shit storm I am fully willing to unleash....

[Beta]

As I shipped from first to fifth, and neither of them talked about such age laws that's I can recall, can you point me to where it has been confirmed that nothing has been changed?  (I'm willing to believe people could be that stupid, but it is certainly one of those things that stretches my suspension of disbelief somewhat, so would like to understand better what has been said in official material).

Also, there's is no reason to assume that mental maturation is at human rate.  Orcs could be ahead of human kids in terms of mental maturity during younger years, but not, on average, develop the same depth during  that faster development.

[Reaver]

Neo-anarchist's guide to modern life has some info.

SR: beyond the shadows also has some small info.

SR campanion also has some.

Shadowbeat as a small entry.

Neo anarchist's guide to north America. Has some info.

And then you can also pick up some info from all the Seattle sourcebooks (3? 4 of them? Lost count)

And the 6th world alminac.

Not to mention the Lone Star book, which was filled with rules, laws, punishments, fines, and racism. And info on Lone Star naturally.

That's your starting reading list for sourcebooks.
From there you turn to novels, and there are so many examples there mixed into the writing... just pick up any novel and you will examples if you look for them.


Or, you could try looking for the group M.o.M and follow their activities in the source books for their fight for equality. (M.o.M stands for Mothers of Metahumans. An advocate group for equality of metahumans).

The long and short of it is, you have dozens of entries in dozens of books to look at and pick through, as the information is spread out and all over the history of SR. Which makes it hard for anyone to point a single page or passage in any single book to prove or refute anything.

Such is the problem with any franchise with a living history  
(Look at D&D realms of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, or Dragonlance settings. Look at some SJG or white wolf games...)

[condottiere]

The human mind only fully physically matures by age twenty five, which personal experience tends to indicate is true. You could be generous and say this occurs for Orks at age twelve.

This is effected by native intelligence, education and experience. Smart alecky kids are littered through out the television landscape, though they have to be prodigies to take advantage of their (advanced) educations. You also tend to need actual experience (or virtual) in order to have a perspective on likely consequences to actions.

There are two famous examples of accelerated aging to force grow soldiers/warriors, Star Wars Clone Troopers, and what seems explicitly shown in the Lord of the Rings trilogy for the Uruk-hai.

Educationwise, they could fast track to (not through) college with sports scholarships, and then turn pro. Or maybe, just turn pro. Their parents can then manage or supervise their careers, which means they'll be close by if anything needs to be contractually signed or requires parental permission.

But in most other situations, this seems unlikely, as they'll be busy holding down a job as well. So if you have the money to splurge in a club, or need to rent a car, the market for fake identity papers for Orks must be quite lucrative, and bouncers and the reception clerk could state that they all look the same to them.

I recall World of Darkness having Vampires, Mages, Werewolves, Mages, Ghosts, Mummies and Hunters; don't remember seeing Orc(k)s.

Criminal liability tends to be only from ages seven onwards, and even then, it tends to have limitations until age eighteen. At age ten, normal kids should understand the consequences of murder.

The issue seems to be matching the ages of majority, responsibility and maturity for a species that grows twice as fast as humans.