[The Bald Man]

I working on an infiltration mage.  Can't pull that off without being able to take down a few mooks quietly and preferable non-lethally.  I'm considering the Decrease Attribute spells.  If I were to pick-up two of them what would be the best two? 
To take out a mage, Decrease Willpower is a terrible choice, but Strength is a good choice.
To take out a Troll combat monster, Strength or body is a terrible choice. 
So to cast the widest net, which two attributes are most frequently inverse in your experience.  Logic and Strength seem like strong contenders. 

Also chime in with any other thoughts you have on awakened infiltrators you would like to share. 

[fseperent]

Strength is no question.
I would also say Intuition to kill Perception rolls.
Maybe Charisma if you like talking your way around

[Jack_Spade]

You should look at which attributes can be effectively augmented: Body and Charisma are the two that usually won't have an augmentation

[Hobbes]

Magic is better at avoiding Mooks or Blowing them to H&G in job lots.  Subtle take down with Sorcery is really tough as most spells that incapacitate are opposed and you need a few net hits to achieve anything meaningful.  Popping off a force 6 Decrease Charisma is a threshold 0 Perception test for anyone near by to spot the mage, presuming starting character with a Spellcasting of 6. 

If you've got someone unaware and alone, just taze 'em and move on with your day.  If they're not unaware and alone, you're probably better off sneaking past them.

[Glyph]

There are a lot less spells that can take a mook out in one shot since the nerf to direct combat spells - they only do net hits, so while they are good for whittling a foe down, they are much less likely to give you a one-shot takedown.  Decrease Attribute is a touch-range spell, needs to be sustained, and depends a lot on guessing which Attribute is going to be low enough (since you will have to reduce the Attribute to zero to incapacitate the target).

Your best bet is indirect combat spells - punch (if the character is built for touch spells) or clout for non-lethal takedowns.  This will be especially effective if you can surprise the target.  Another option is to use one of the various mental manipulation spells.

[Reaver]

An other thing to consider with decrease attribute spells is what exactly is the effect, and what you are expecting.

Dropping strength to 0 is a great way to reduce a mook to a floor slug for sure. But it doesn't stop him from using implants to call for help wirelessly.

Then there is the range (touch) which means you have to be right next to the target...... if your stealth abilities are good enough to get that close, they are probably goid enough just to sneak by him.

Then there is the fact that these have to be sustained to be effective.... which means for every mook you drop with a decrease attribute spell, your mage is taking a -2 DP to everything.... 2 mooks? -4. 3 mooks? -6.....
Yes you can get around this with sustaining foci and focused concentration, but that is a fair investment for such a niche spell, and will only offset so many spells. (Well, 1 per foci and FC).


Some days the solution is not magic at all, or a more direct magical approach is more effective/less resource intensive.


But if you really want to go this way, targeting mental stats is the way to go. Reduce a mental stat to zero, turn the mook into a veggie No brain, no movement, no using inplants or wireless to call for help.

[Coyote]

I think I would really prefer to use Control Thoughts or Control Person, for a 1-shot silencing effect upon a person. Yes, you then still have to finish them off with a Taser or a couple of Stunbolts, but it seems easier to use than to try for a touch-range spell that may or may not target the target's (heh) lowest attribute. And it's more useful for other purposes, also.

[dposluns]

If you're going for touch-based Health spells, I'd consider Nauseate from Shadow Spells. Why?

• It's resisted only by Body, as opposed to Decrease Attribute, which is resisted by Willpower + the attribute in question
• It's instantaneous and doesn't require sustaining or a sustain penalty
• It's guaranteed to incapacitate them at least temporarily if you get a single net hit, versus Decrease Attribute you need sufficient net hits (versus two attributes instead of one) to get that attribute to zero.
• Plus the bonus effect of doubling their wound modifiers, which ain't nothing.

I do like the Punch spell, as was mentioned; my current character is a Punch-mage. I've trained Unarmed Combat to make it work. You'd need to do the same with your health spell if you're not relying entirely on stealth. I think if I were to go that direction again I might consider a Mystic Adept as there are a bunch of Adept Powers that enhance or give cool abilities that draw from Unarmed Combat. The thing with Punch is that it doesn't ignore Armor (although it is armor-piercing), so it's less of a sure thing to one-shot a guy than something like Nauseate potentially is (although with Nauseate you still need to finish them off). Still pretty effective though.

An interesting potential benefit of going with a health-based attack spell is if you want to build a buffing mage then you can take mentors and specializations that apply to Health and get the benefit for both attack and defense. In close quarters you can split your dice pool to attack multiple enemies in a single action (you can't take more than one Attack action per initiative pass, but you CAN split a single action into multiple attacks by dividing your dice pool) and the bonuses would apply to each of the split pools. So say there are three guards hanging out together that don't see me... if I have 12 spellcasting + 2 mentor spirit + 2 Health specialization then I can smack them all at once with a single spinning slap, and my normal 12 dicepool will be split into 4/4/4 but will be 8/8/8 after the modifiers, so that's my 8 versus their Body (probably 3 or 4 for your standard grunt), pretty good odds of getting a net hit on each of them and they're all stuck puking their guts out for the next combat turn, and I don't have any sustain penalties to pay.

[FST_Gemstar]

If you're going for touch-based Health spells, I'd consider Nauseate from Shadow Spells. Why?

• It's resisted only by Body, as opposed to Decrease Attribute, which is resisted by Willpower + the attribute in question
• It's instantaneous and doesn't require sustaining or a sustain penalty
• It's guaranteed to incapacitate them at least temporarily if you get a single net hit, versus Decrease Attribute you need sufficient net hits (versus two attributes instead of one) to get that attribute to zero.
• Plus the bonus effect of doubling their wound modifiers, which ain't nothing.

 

I like this! Especially if your goal is quick incapacitation. I have tried to make negative touch magicians work. The best I have is a health alchemist who flings negative attribute preparations (getting passed the melee part of "touch" spells as a contact trigger would do with the help of Fire-Bringer for the Alchemy and Manipulation bonuses). Body/Charisma are nice because they are least augmentable. The downside is that these two are most often middle-ground attributes, hovering around 3/4 for a lot of characters. "Dump" stats are another option, Strength of Logic. A mental limit focused characters probably have low Strength, physical limit focused characters probably have low Logic. Willpower can work if you are planning on more than one decrease attribute, as it will make your next one likely more effective.

[dluxcru]

Rot (also from Shadow spells) is a potential option if you are committed to health spells and don't mind a nastier option.


Chaotic World, Stench, Agony, Euphoria are also good at this kind of thing but don't require touch being Illusion. They do require sustain, though, so keep that in mind.


If you're going for an infiltrator, keep in mind some of the following spells for avoiding detection - Silence/Stealth, Manascape (Shadow Spells, To hide you and your foci, quickened spells, channeled spirits etc.), and Levitate (avoid pressure sensors). I'm pretty sure there is also a spell to mess with sensors in general but am not remembering the name.

[dposluns]

If you're going for an infiltrator, keep in mind some of the following spells for avoiding detection - Silence/Stealth, Manascape (Shadow Spells, To hide you and your foci, quickened spells, channeled spirits etc.), and Levitate (avoid pressure sensors). I'm pretty sure there is also a spell to mess with sensors in general but am not remembering the name.

Hard to beat a spirit's Concealment power for infiltration as well. Sure, you can pit the hits from your Illusion spell against their stats (or Object Resistance in the case of sensors), or you can just take all their perception dice away.

[The Bald Man]

I was thinking with the decrease health spells are one of the few ways to 'reliably' drop someone in 1 action - quietly and non-lethally.  Only have to sustain until you apply the appropriate chemicals and verify they have taken hold (biomonitor).

Was leaning toward mystic adept for traceless walk and motion sense. 

I have a lot to think about with the comments above.  thnaks all

[Whiskeyjack]

I was thinking with the decrease health spells are one of the few ways to 'reliably' drop someone in 1 action - quietly and non-lethally.

It's not very reliable for anything that matters, is the problem, and has the added issues of touch range.