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Technomancer...Lots of questions and Critique

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Bushw4cker

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« Reply #15 on: <07-13-16/2131:51> »
I have read and re-read the decking section and I do not remember seeing that !  i will go read it again!  LOL

So as a technomancer with a Charisma of 5 and cybercombat of 6 and if I was hot.   I would roll 13 dice with a limit of 5 dice?  So 5 DV plus 1 per net hit and they would resist with the host rating x2 (not the firewall?)

Thanks!!!

Well it's actually Logic + Cybercombat (Attack)  (Attack being equal to Technomancers Charisma)

I have cheat sheet written up somewhere I will try to post later.
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

Scottys72

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« Reply #16 on: <07-15-16/2308:26> »
Thank you all again for all of your help.  I am starting to get the hang of all of this, but the more I read the more questions I have :)

The biggest question I have is it seams like a lot of people are saying that deckers rule and technomancers drool.  I get that deckers have agents, programs and don't take bio-feedback unless htey are in hot sim, but why else are deckers superior?  I also seams that to be a good technomancer you need to be creative and you might not be as straight forward as a decker. 

Follow up questions: 

What are the best specializations to take?  I saw some but I was not sure of some of the abbreviations.  You can only start with one specialization correct?
What complex forms are best to take?  I saw some say puppettering, but I was thinking the drain was too much.  So I was thinking of going with Static Veil, resonance veil and resonance veil.
With a logic of 5 what spirits do you keep registered and at what lvl?

Also I can only use the core rule book, so I cant take qualities out of data trails :(

That being said I was thinking about taking focused concentration, codeslinger (HoTF) and natural hardening.

Does Natural hardening help for all damage tests for a technomancer?  Does this also help vs. fade?





« Last Edit: <07-15-16/2313:01> by Scottys72 »

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #17 on: <07-16-16/0258:05> »
Thank you all again for all of your help.  I am starting to get the hang of all of this, but the more I read the more questions I have :)

The biggest question I have is it seams like a lot of people are saying that deckers rule and technomancers drool.  I get that deckers have agents, programs and don't take bio-feedback unless htey are in hot sim, but why else are deckers superior?  I also seams that to be a good technomancer you need to be creative and you might not be as straight forward as a decker. 

Follow up questions: 

What are the best specializations to take?  I saw some but I was not sure of some of the abbreviations.  You can only start with one specialization correct?
What complex forms are best to take?  I saw some say puppettering, but I was thinking the drain was too much.  So I was thinking of going with Static Veil, resonance veil and resonance veil.
With a logic of 5 what spirits do you keep registered and at what lvl?

Also I can only use the core rule book, so I cant take qualities out of data trails :(

That being said I was thinking about taking focused concentration, codeslinger (HoTF) and natural hardening.

Does Natural hardening help for all damage tests for a technomancer?  Does this also help vs. fade?

Technomancers are going to get better the more Karma you put into their abilities. Being a technomancer, you're not dependent on your Deck. If a Decker loses his deck or of it gets bricked, he's going to be out a lot of Nuyen. Deckers right after character creation are going to be able to Hack better than a Technomancer, but Technomancers get abilities that Deckers never get. Technomancers get +2 Dice for Matrix Perception Tests, which you will be rolling more than just about any other test, so there's that.

Yes you can only start with one specialization, but after character creation, you can buy more.

Hacking (Devices +2)

Probably one of the Best Complex Forms is Diffusion of Firewall.. BUT you need High Software Skill and High Resonance with Diffusion of Firewall Specialization to be worth it.

Static Veil is nice if you have Focused Concentration 1 or 2

Good Quality Choices.

Natural Hardening does NOT help with Fade, but does with damage resistance tests.

I think they are going to release Technomancer book for 5th Edition eventually, so there is bound to be all sorts of stuff that's going to help..



"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

Coyote

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« Reply #18 on: <07-16-16/1135:18> »
The biggest question I have is it seams like a lot of people are saying that deckers rule and technomancers drool.  I get that deckers have agents, programs and don't take bio-feedback unless htey are in hot sim, but why else are deckers superior?  I also seams that to be a good technomancer you need to be creative and you might not be as straight forward as a decker. 

I think that there is a problem with the CONCEPT of Technomancers (both as described and as shown in fiction), and the RULES of Technomancers. Specifically, the strongest type of Technomancer would:
1: use a Deck, and put enough Sprites into it so that every test that they make on it gets the skill dice (or the ability dice for a defensive test) doubled due to the Sprite's assists. You lose ratings in the deck's Matrix Attributes, but on defense that doesn't matter as much as the extra dice, and on offense the assisting Sprites will increase the test's limit anyhow so you act as if you are using a more expensive Deck, other than not being able to run as many Programs.
2: use a Cyberarm, which both makes up for allowing them to dump AGI / STR, and using Sprites, doubles the skill of any one-handed attacks that you may make.
3: use a Monofilament Whip, with a Sprite preventing Glitches so it's a safe weapon.
4: run a strong combat Drone, with a Sprite or two doubling its effective skill
5: get First Aid and use a Medkit, with a Sprite boosting the First Aid skill
etc.

Basically, the strongest rule-based ability of Technos over Deckers is the Diagnose ability of a Machine Sprite. But, that means that in order to take the best advantage of it, you need to use as many electronic devices as possible. Both in the Matrix, and out of it. But the concept of Technos is of people who can do amazing things without using ANY devices. Except that their best ability is only useful FOR using devices. So we have a conundrum, a conflict between the fluff description of Technos and the rule benefits of min-maxing a Cyberarm, Rotodrone, and cheap Deck.

You can start a Techno character who is tossing 20 dice into Hacking checks, AND 16+ dice into shooting with a SMG, AND 13+ dice into swinging a Monowhip. Maybe even afford a drone that shoots with 14 dice on its own, or up to a ridiculous 20 if you're controlling it (normal remote control, not Jumping In, until you get the control rig echo). I'm kind of uncertain whether you can afford an arm, deck, AND drone plus whip all at the start, but you can definitely do the deck and one kind of heavy offense: either the arm or the drone. To me, that compares nicely to Cyberarm Deckers, who have other advantages but are no longer clearly better overall.

But you have to go BADLY against the usual Technomancer concept. Even more than back when Adepts first were added, and people scoffed at the idea of gun-based Adepts, because clearly Adepts were Mystic Martial Artists, and shooting a gun was "Not Martial Arts". So now, Technos are clearly "Mind over Machine", which means that if you're using machines, you're a sell-out Technomancer and not worthy of the name.

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #19 on: <07-16-16/1420:15> »
The biggest question I have is it seams like a lot of people are saying that deckers rule and technomancers drool.  I get that deckers have agents, programs and don't take bio-feedback unless htey are in hot sim, but why else are deckers superior?  I also seams that to be a good technomancer you need to be creative and you might not be as straight forward as a decker. 

I think that there is a problem with the CONCEPT of Technomancers (both as described and as shown in fiction), and the RULES of Technomancers. Specifically, the strongest type of Technomancer would:
1: use a Deck, and put enough Sprites into it so that every test that they make on it gets the skill dice (or the ability dice for a defensive test) doubled due to the Sprite's assists. You lose ratings in the deck's Matrix Attributes, but on defense that doesn't matter as much as the extra dice, and on offense the assisting Sprites will increase the test's limit anyhow so you act as if you are using a more expensive Deck, other than not being able to run as many Programs.
2: use a Cyberarm, which both makes up for allowing them to dump AGI / STR, and using Sprites, doubles the skill of any one-handed attacks that you may make.
3: use a Monofilament Whip, with a Sprite preventing Glitches so it's a safe weapon.
4: run a strong combat Drone, with a Sprite or two doubling its effective skill
5: get First Aid and use a Medkit, with a Sprite boosting the First Aid skill
etc.

Basically, the strongest rule-based ability of Technos over Deckers is the Diagnose ability of a Machine Sprite. But, that means that in order to take the best advantage of it, you need to use as many electronic devices as possible. Both in the Matrix, and out of it. But the concept of Technos is of people who can do amazing things without using ANY devices. Except that their best ability is only useful FOR using devices. So we have a conundrum, a conflict between the fluff description of Technos and the rule benefits of min-maxing a Cyberarm, Rotodrone, and cheap Deck.

You can start a Techno character who is tossing 20 dice into Hacking checks, AND 16+ dice into shooting with a SMG, AND 13+ dice into swinging a Monowhip. Maybe even afford a drone that shoots with 14 dice on its own, or up to a ridiculous 20 if you're controlling it (normal remote control, not Jumping In, until you get the control rig echo). I'm kind of uncertain whether you can afford an arm, deck, AND drone plus whip all at the start, but you can definitely do the deck and one kind of heavy offense: either the arm or the drone. To me, that compares nicely to Cyberarm Deckers, who have other advantages but are no longer clearly better overall.

But you have to go BADLY against the usual Technomancer concept. Even more than back when Adepts first were added, and people scoffed at the idea of gun-based Adepts, because clearly Adepts were Mystic Martial Artists, and shooting a gun was "Not Martial Arts". So now, Technos are clearly "Mind over Machine", which means that if you're using machines, you're a sell-out Technomancer and not worthy of the name.

The problem is the DIagnostics Sprite Power. I can't imagine a lot of GMs would allow you to do all the above you mentioned,  Technomancers abusing Diagnostics is like the face that used Emo Toys in 4th edition.
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

Scottys72

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« Reply #20 on: <07-16-16/2030:06> »
Thanks again!

So starting off what would you start working towards first?  The deck or a cyberarm?  I only have 11k starting (due to priorities)  and I am trying not to gimp myself.   I was thinking that one of the first things I would start working towards with Karma is submersion lvl 1.


Can you go into a little more depth about using sprite's powers on decks and or other items?

Thanks!

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #21 on: <07-16-16/2100:41> »
Thanks again!

So starting off what would you start working towards first?  The deck or a cyberarm?  I only have 11k starting (due to priorities)  and I am trying not to gimp myself.   I was thinking that one of the first things I would start working towards with Karma is submersion lvl 1.


Can you go into a little more depth about using sprite's powers on decks and or other items?

Thanks!

I wouldn't get either, you can store everything you need on commlink (since Technomancers don't have storage memory with their Living Persona), work on Submersion.
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

Coyote

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« Reply #22 on: <07-16-16/2127:05> »
Well, first, if you're going to make a Technomancer who is heavy into devices, it's something that you decide before making the character, since you're looking to spend 100k or more, which means Priority C in equipment. If you're not going that way, then it's kind of far away.

I would first look towards a Drone. You already have good Logic to be a Technomancer, and that's your shooting attribute when remote controlling it (whether with a Jump In or just a standard Control Device action). And a combat-ready drone can be had for as cheaply as $6k or so if you consider a pretty accurate Taser to be combat-ready. If you want a real weapon, a Roto-drone with an Assault Rifle is in the neighborhood of $12-15k. A lot cheaper than a deck.

Submersion should come first, probably, it's pretty cheap and really useful.

Lastly... a cyberdeck doesn't cost Essence. Neither does a drone. A cyberarm is both a lot more expensive, and costs Essence, which drops your Resonance. I really would want to have a good in-game reason why the character has a cyberarm, rather than just having an arm replaced with a cyberarm so the character can see how cool it is to have an arm that has its own AI. Well, actually, that last reason is almost convincing enough...
« Last Edit: <07-16-16/2129:39> by Coyote »

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #23 on: <07-17-16/0420:17> »
The most important Matrix Action that your going to want to invest the most into is Hack on the Fly.  This lets you get your Marks on Targets, which lets you do just about everything else.

So I would recommend for Technomancer or Decker. Logic at Racial Maximum. (6 For Humans)

Hacking Skill: Rating 6, Specialize in (Devices +2)

Codeslinger (Hack on the Fly)

Where you are going to be spending your Karma:

As Technomancer, you are going to want to Submerge. One Echo that you might not think about at first, is

Resonance [Program]: This echo lets you copy the
effects of one common or hacking program (p. 245).
Each time you take this echo, you must specify which
program you are mimicking. You can take this echo
more than once, each time for a different program.


Getting Baby Monitor program would be really nice for Technomancer, because getting hit with Convergence (12V Matrix Damage + Dumpshock 6S-for AR, 6P-for Hot Sim) is very bad for a Technomancer, it will almost certainly knock you out. I know that some people might not agree with me on this, but especially for a new player, I would recommend it.  Yes you can perform Simple Action to check your Overwatch score, but doing that will almost always add to that score. You roll Electronic Warfare + Sleaze vs 6 dice. "Your Overwatch Score is 38" "Now its 41, I just rolled 3 hits, Take 12S damage"

You're going to be putting a lot of Karma into Hacking. (48 Karma to get from level 6 to level 9), also you want to pick up a few other specializations for Hacking (Hosts +2), (Files +2).. 7 Karma Each
This will give you 19 Dice for most Hack on the Fly Attempts (21 for Hot Sim)

These are the Host Ratings you're going to be facing.
Personal sites, pirate archives, public education 1–2
Low-end commercial, private business, public libraries, small policlubs 3–4
Social media, small colleges and universities, local police, international policlubs 5–6
Matrix games, local corporate hosts, large universities, low-level government 7–8


Hosts have all
four Matrix attributes: Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing,
and Firewall. The ratings of these attributes are usually
(Host Rating), (Host Rating + 1), (Host Rating + 2), and
(Host Rating + 3),


So you are going to be looking at dice pools to resist your Hack on the Fly Attempts (Host Rating x 2) + 0 to 3. So for a Rating 7 Host you could be looking at possibly 17 Dice rolled against your Hacking Attempt. This is why I think it's good for Deckers/Technomancers to have higher Edge. If whatever you were trying to Hack gets more successes than you, it gets one free Mark on you.
« Last Edit: <07-17-16/0435:33> by Bushw4cker »
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

tytalan

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« Reply #24 on: <07-17-16/1353:48> »
One of the problems we are all having is that we don't have a real Decker/Tecno book yet   Data trails has next to nothing for Deckers and Nothing for Tecno's  even Rigger's does not really touch on the characters just the toys

Dwagonzhan

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« Reply #25 on: <07-19-16/1355:43> »
I recently started a new SR5 game, and this past weekend a new player asked if he wanted to play a Technomancer.
Since I skipped SR4, I figured this would be a necessary learning experience, so this thread (and those linked) have been fairly useful.

In the process, I've bumped into a few issues:
1) Technomancers are very min-max prone; almost by necessity rather than pure twink/power-play.
2) Matrix rules. There's a reason I truncated a lot of the decking ("hacking") in SR3, and now I'm reliving it.
3) No splatbook exclusively for Technomancers means less technical twink to worry about, but more headaches in balancing AR/VR runs for the TM at the start.
"You haven't truly lived until you've had a Cortex bomb!" ~Former GM

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #26 on: <07-19-16/2155:22> »
I recently started a new SR5 game, and this past weekend a new player asked if he wanted to play a Technomancer.
Since I skipped SR4, I figured this would be a necessary learning experience, so this thread (and those linked) have been fairly useful.

In the process, I've bumped into a few issues:
1) Technomancers are very min-max prone; almost by necessity rather than pure twink/power-play.
2) Matrix rules. There's a reason I truncated a lot of the decking ("hacking") in SR3, and now I'm reliving it.
3) No splatbook exclusively for Technomancers means less technical twink to worry about, but more headaches in balancing AR/VR runs for the TM at the start.

You almost have to House Rule some stuff for Decking with Technomancers and to a lesser extent Deckers as well.  My Technomancer Archetype for the games I run is different than what Technomancer Archetype I would post on these forums.

One things that sucks about making Technomancers is, the Priority system makes it very difficult. Example: Skills. There are 2 or 3 Skill Groups that have very important Skills you more than likely want at max starting rating. Hacking from Cracking Group, Computer from Electronics, Compiling from Tasking (I think that's right name). Technomancers (and Deckers) taking priority A or B for skills, for A, are going to have to take One important skill group at rating 4, or 2 important skill groups at Rating 5, and you're not going to be able to specialize. Same if you take Priority B, your going to have Important Skill Group at rating 5.

There is almost no way to make a even halfway decent Metahuman Technomancer with Priority character creation. Point Buy (Karma gen) is the only way to do it. 
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

Dwagonzhan

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« Reply #27 on: <07-20-16/0227:10> »
You almost have to House Rule some stuff for Decking with Technomancers and to a lesser extent Deckers as well.  My Technomancer Archetype for the games I run is different than what Technomancer Archetype I would post on these forums.

Out of curiosity, what sort of differences are there between the two Technomancers?
No pressure if it's complex; I'm just a sucker for game design. (made a few of my own systems)

Quote
One things that sucks about making Technomancers is, the Priority system makes it very difficult. Example: Skills. There are 2 or 3 Skill Groups that have very important Skills you more than likely want at max starting rating. Hacking from Cracking Group, Computer from Electronics, Compiling from Tasking (I think that's right name). Technomancers (and Deckers) taking priority A or B for skills, for A, are going to have to take One important skill group at rating 4, or 2 important skill groups at Rating 5, and you're not going to be able to specialize. Same if you take Priority B, your going to have Important Skill Group at rating 5.

There is almost no way to make a even halfway decent Metahuman Technomancer with Priority character creation. Point Buy (Karma gen) is the only way to do it.

Yeah, going through the creation process with my friend for his Technomancer showed just how nasty the skill requirements were.
There are way too many "split horizons" on Skill Groups and Priority doesn't let you pick any Hacking Group or Computer skills as your freebies for taking Resonance A/B/C, despite those being wheelhouse categories.

I would normally endorse Karma System myself, but the issue I've run into there, is it punishes people who play non-humans pretty badly on Attributes.
Having to pay for the metatype and the rising costs for each extra attribute point hurts; so I had everyone roll Priority for the first time around.
Ironically, it matter since every player I have for my New Orleans game is now Human. -_-

I'm tempted to just come up with an adjusted generation system myself at this point.
"You haven't truly lived until you've had a Cortex bomb!" ~Former GM

Kuirem

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« Reply #28 on: <07-20-16/0256:26> »
Having to pay for the metatype and the rising costs for each extra attribute point hurts; so I had everyone roll Priority for the first time around.

Personally I think that the Karma system makes Metatype better! Every Metatype, except the Elf, is worth more karma in attributes than it cost. The Ork, for instance, cost 50 Karma but BOD 4 and STR 3 cost 70 Karma (-10 for the 2 Edge of human) and you get free low-light vision on top. If Metavariant are allowed you will always have a cheaper choice than human, the problem is that the min/maxing mindset from Priority is hard to shake off and you want to max attributes but putting only a couple of point should be good enough when you have a starting BOD of 4 (and attributes can always be raised later with Karma).

Troll can make awesome hybrid build, if you are willing to sacrifice 1 dice in LOG/INT for an mage/decker you can start with 5 BOD/STR for only 90 Karma. The same on a human would have cost 140 karma! And on top of that you get Thermographic Vision, +1 Armor and +1 reach (you also stand out in a crowd).

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #29 on: <07-20-16/0319:02> »
Quote
Quote from: Bushw4cker on (21:55:22/07-19-16)

    You almost have to House Rule some stuff for Decking with Technomancers and to a lesser extent Deckers as well.  My Technomancer Archetype for the games I run is different than what Technomancer Archetype I would post on these forums.


Out of curiosity, what sort of differences are there between the two Technomancers?
No pressure if it's complex; I'm just a sucker for game design. (made a few of my own systems)

Nothing that special, I'm attaching the Technomancer Archetype that I would recommend for Starting Player that wants to play Technomancer, but doesn't want to design his own. 

The Archetype I posted is a little too min/max for my games. I like to reward creativity in my games. One of the optional rules in 4th ed., for Flamboyant gameplay, was a success could be counted on a 4, 5 or 6, giving you a 50% chance to roll a hit. I'll use this occasionally if player does something clever, or good roleplaying.


Quote
Yeah, going through the creation process with my friend for his Technomancer showed just how nasty the skill requirements were.
There are way too many "split horizons" on Skill Groups and Priority doesn't let you pick any Hacking Group or Computer skills as your freebies for taking Resonance A/B/C, despite those being wheelhouse categories.

I would normally endorse Karma System myself, but the issue I've run into there, is it punishes people who play non-humans pretty badly on Attributes.
Having to pay for the metatype and the rising costs for each extra attribute point hurts; so I had everyone roll Priority for the first time around.
Ironically, it matter since every player I have for my New Orleans game is now Human. -_-

I'm tempted to just come up with an adjusted generation system myself at this point.

Yeah, but like what Kuriem said...

Quote
the problem is that the min/maxing mindset from Priority is hard to shake off
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett