[Shamie]

Hello to all

So im having problem in my current game with the day job negative qualities. 2 players took it and the 2 of them game the system in some way or another as to nullify the negative part of day job. So the negatives of day jobs are problematic to me as the main one is that time in one reduces time in shadowrun which is problematic to a game about Shadowruns. I cant just say to the player "yeah you got a shift, so you aint playing today"

So here is what happened

1st player is the son of a retired Shadowrunner, said retired shadowrunner runs a shadowrun bar (a typical waterhole, nothing fancy) and the PC works there. So he bought his father as contact (loyalty 6, connection 4), so whenever i try to cut down the time of planning because of his work, the player balks at me saying that "well my PC dad is a shadowrunner, logically he would cover for me besides is low-end bar".

The said player pick the quality at +10 so a 2500 nuyen salary and a low lifestyle (2000 per month) so that means he doesn't really need shadowrunning so anything that is not a squeaky clean job is a no for him which makes DMing taxing. And finally he played a gunslinger with little charisma but he constantly uses his dad contact for everything (Source of info, source of more contacts, weapon dealer, etc).

2nd player picked day job as a weapon dealer (+15 karma). Which is all well and good but he constantly ask for high availability weapons because he IS a contact and should get it even though he doesn't have any social skills, attributes and/or contacts.

Now, i heard an option was to extend the training time table for players with a job but as they run 1 every month or every 2 month is will never be an issue. So the other idea i had is to charge it as a positive quality, instead of a negative one as it seems they get free money, contacts and karma from it. Is that too high for a positive quality? Has anyone try it?

Thanks

[Beta]

First of all, I admit that I’m of the camp that the points you get from day job are way too high, and I expect any negative quality with that many points to be a substantial negative.

A basic rule is that a negative quality that isn’t negative …. Isn’t a negative quality.  I’d lay this out for your players, and offer them some choices:
-   They can play along with the negatives you are bringing up.
-   They can suggest other ways that it could be negative
-   They can buy off the quality.  You can even offer them an installment plan, and not charge them double, to make it more palatable.
-   In the case of the character who has a stable low life lifestyle from his day job, that character could always retire, or partially retire (the player could make a second character to use on dirtier runs)

Make it clear that
a)   Status quo is not an option
b)   That gaming the system should not be seen as a victory.

As for other negatives that you can apply to the whole thing:  have they been using the same ID for working as they do for ‘runs?  If so, have someone trace them back to their job.  But don’t just have someone take a shot at them, have it really mess up their life.  For example, a corp cop finds the one character works at the ‘runner bar.  He investigates further and figures out the family relationship with the owner, then looks into the owner more (aka characters father), and figures out who HE was, back in the day – and what warrants are still open against him (murder doesn’t expire in most jurisdictions, I think).

Then he comes after the PC runner and quietly informs him of what is going to happen to his father if the kid doesn’t do certain jobs for him.

For the weapon store owner, inform him that he didn’t buy the black-market pipeline quality, so yes he can get gear legally … gear that is owned by his store, or which his store had sold to his fake ID.  Either way it is potentially traceable to his store.  Ask him if he really wants to use that gear? And if he says ‘no, I sell black market stuff’ then ask where he is getting it from?).   Also he would probably need licenses on his fake ID for selling such things (and again, surely he isn’t using the same ID on runs?). 

If he doesn’t cooperate, I’d have some sort of cop show up, describe exactly how screwed he is because his weapons have been linked to shadow runs, then shake him down for pretty much everything he’s making from the store, as well as threatening him with arrest for capital crimes unless he does certain favours….

[Medicineman]

>>> The said player pick the quality at +10 so a 2500 nuyen salary and a low lifestyle (2000 per month) so that means he doesn't really need shadowrunning so anything that is not a squeaky clean job is a no for him which makes DMing taxing.

Not at all (ImO)
If the Player is a sissy and behaves like that offer him a Run and if he/his Char refuses than he won't play that run simple as that.

>>>2nd player picked day job as a weapon dealer (+15 karma). Which is all well and good but he constantly ask for high availability weapons because he IS a contact and should get it even though he doesn't have any social skills, attributes and/or contacts.

No social Skills and no Contacts, well then he CAN'T get his Stuff.Simple as that
or other Dealers (with the right Skills and Contacts) Cheat him out of Business.

A Day Job is most often as an Employee not as as indepandant entrepeneuer that Way the Player/char might get in Trouble if he misses a Shift for a Run !
it all boils down that You have 2 Options
A)
Talk to the Players and tell them that they abuse the system ( a Neg Qual that isn't at least sometimes negative ain't no Neg Qual ! )
B )
Cause misery and bad Luck ingame.
The Bar of Players Dad goes broke, Mafia comes to collect Protection Money, Dad can't pay Sonny anymore,etc.
Lots of RPG possibiolities (but make Sure that there is no GM Fiat) . Other Weapon Dealer want to get rid of the   Newby
(Player 2 ) and  start to get rough on him /get him out of Business.
See ; if the Runners don't want to come to the Run, the Run comes to them

HeyaHeyaHeyaJaw
Medicineman

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

At the start of a run, have them roll an appropriate attribute pair - Edge would be the default, plus either something for the job itself (Str or Bod for construction work, Logic for office work, stuff like that) or else Charisma for trying to 'skate out' in the middle of a shift if that's necessary.  Their hit threshold is one for every level of Day Job they have - so if they have Day Job 3, they have to get 3 hits in order to either a) not be at work (or not have to go into work in the middle of it), or b) be able to 'get out of it' without there being problems.

Obviously, working during the day and running at night can be a thing, but sleep is a thing too, so ... the above works as a quick-and-dirty judgement-call fix.  'Problems', of course, are up to you - they get called onto the carpet, the local or corporate cops start nosing into them, whatever you want.

[Medicineman]

Most Often day Job means you're an employee but if the Player is sincere and doesn't want to cheat his Char out of the Negative of this Quality zhan I'd allow for an Indipendant Job.
One SR3 Char of mine was a Dwarfen Weaponsmith with his own little Backdoor-Shop who got into Trouble ( In Debt, Trouble with the
Local Gang etc)  so that he had to do Runs to keep his Shop running...

But I & the GM used the Shop as a Hook to keep the Char Running in the Shadows and not as a cheap excuse to get all the Weapons etc. !
(it was fun to play a grumpy Dwarf because in his Heart he was a law abiding citizen forced to do Runs in which he was really good at. He was also a very good shot & Marksman but refused to kill People, working with Gel Ammo and Stick & Schock instead )

with a Running Dance
Medicineman

[Shamie]

Make it clear that
a)   Status quo is not an option

What does this means?

b)   That gaming the system should not be seen as a victory.

As for other negatives that you can apply to the whole thing:  have they been using the same ID for working as they do for ‘runs?  If so, have someone trace them back to their job.  But don’t just have someone take a shot at them, have it really mess up their life.  For example, a corp cop finds the one character works at the ‘runner bar.  He investigates further and figures out the family relationship with the owner, then looks into the owner more (aka characters father), and figures out who HE was, back in the day – and what warrants are still open against him (murder doesn’t expire in most jurisdictions, I think).

Then he comes after the PC runner and quietly informs him of what is going to happen to his father if the kid doesn’t do certain jobs for him.

For the weapon store owner, inform him that he didn’t buy the black-market pipeline quality, so yes he can get gear legally … gear that is owned by his store, or which his store had sold to his fake ID.  Either way it is potentially traceable to his store.  Ask him if he really wants to use that gear? And if he says ‘no, I sell black market stuff’ then ask where he is getting it from?).   Also he would probably need licenses on his fake ID for selling such things (and again, surely he isn’t using the same ID on runs?). 

If he doesn’t cooperate, I’d have some sort of cop show up, describe exactly how screwed he is because his weapons have been linked to shadow runs, then shake him down for pretty much everything he’s making from the store, as well as threatening him with arrest for capital crimes unless he does certain favours….

Oh this one is good. Im gonna use it later on them. Never though about the arrest order on the father.

But I & the GM used the Shop as a Hook to keep the Char Running in the Shadows and not as a cheap excuse to get all the Weapons etc. !
(it was fun to play a grumpy Dwarf because in his Heart he was a law abiding citizen forced to do Runs in which he was really good at. He was also a very good shot & Marksman but refused to kill People, working with Gel Ammo and Stick & Schock instead )

with a Running Dance
Medicineman

Of course if that how they were approaching i would be all up for it, i had a rigger who had a garage as a cover but he always went to runs and never try to "abuse it"

[Reaver]

A NEGATIVE quality with no ramifications to the character is not a NEGATIVE quality.

Time for a sit down and to explain this (IMO) very simple concept...
They took the quality to gain extra karma, and in doing so agreed to abide by the retrictions placed on them by that quality.

If they continue to choose to not abide to the negative effects of the quality, YOU (as the GM) are within your rights to REPLACE that negative quality with an other one of equal value.

Example 1: Bar-owner-Daddy has been hiding the fact he has been skimping on his 'insurance' payments to the mob. Now the Mob has decided to make an example of the Bar-owing-daddy and send a very strong message.... by targeting the Son (IE character) for an accidental case of terminal lead poisioning! <replace Dayjob with Wanted negative quality>

The same could be said for character that is a gun store owner... to many inquries into (F) availability items has drawn the attention of Knight Errant, who have now launched  a criminal investigation into the business...

[Thanael]

http://danvolodar.ru/files/SR/

That site has fine tuned day job rules, read them through. I believe there is even apart where you roll certain skills to see how you perform, how much money you make, if/how many contacts you acquire there and if you get problems from work. This should take care of some problems above... 

And even if dad is the owner and a high level contact it should only create more personal problems.

Read the rules for "Doing your job" (where a few skill check measure performance that influences your pay) and " "Patrons" rules (which limit the total acquired contacts per job).


I'd build the jobs this way:
Job1: Helping out at Daddies 'Runner Bar
This is a cross between bartender, bouncer and fixer in training.

Requirements:
Primary skill: Etiquette (street) 5
Secondary skill: Negotiation 4, Intimidation 4, Unarmed Combat 4

Job qualities: Half-day,  Easy-going employer, small business, SIN-less, chatty, dangerous, unpleasant co workers, diverse skillset.

Cost - 8 BP, 20 hours a week, Availability 12, Payment 6, Social 4, no SIN required.
Payment:12(-5 or x.5)=6


Job 1 is possible under the Job rules from the site above incl. a laid pack schedule/employer and all. It comes out as giving only 7 BP though, but the with the rules from the document he picks up and improves new contacts easily, I.e. Let's assume he saved a few build points there or give him a small rating enemy from the start associated with the job. Or we need to further tweak the job qualities... He could pick up interesting contacts, but also a few dangerous enemies and may get into some fisticuffs sometime...

Also a  L6C4 ex- runner running a shadow runner bar is clearly a fixer. Remember loyalty 6 runs both ways. So simply have daddy offer the job when another runner became unavailable and check if he still refuses. If yes maybe daddy goes himself and/or something happens to him. Plot hooks galore...

Also read the Job Job Job rules and work out some interesting and some frightening co workers and patrons NPCs. Some could become future Contacts and some will potentially become enemies

Job 2: Weapons Dealer
Running his own own legal shop by himself.

Primary Skill: Negotiation 4
Secondary Skill: Knowledge (firearms) 3,  Armorer 2, Professional Knowledge (small business) 4 (or Logic 3?)
White collar, no coworkers, unsafe
Cost -15, 40 hours a week, Availability 20, Payment 10, Social 2, and requires a valid SIN, licenses checked regularly.
Self-employed, firearm license, gunsmith license, no coworkers, diverse skillset.

Job #2 is also quite possible.

But if he wants to be the owner he would also require a costly commercial  lifestyle for the store and possibly an armorer kit, shop or facility IMO (read up on the lifestyle in Run Faster and in this thread) the lifestyle costs a base 8.000nuyen. This cost could be reduced each month by 1000 for each net hit on a Charisma + Etiquette(Corporate) [social] check. So it is not guaranteed to turn a profit. And you cannot really live there very well. Normally you would purchase a second lifestyle.  If you purchase Day Job at 15 the income is 5.000, so he is not at all guaranteed to turn a profit. He's need 3 net hits just to get even. (Or purchase a few lifestyle modication qualities to reduce lifestyle costs, such as Bad Neighborhood)

And he would need to purchase the merchandise lifestyle quality (Run Faster) for the goods. That quality has rules for the maximum availability of items for sale (3,5,7,9 depending on how many points you spend) and any discounts and reduction in purchase interval (from days to hours, from hours to its on the shelf over there).

It also requires a few licenses which will be checked regularly. Also without the required skills, the store will go down quite quick. Use the Doing your Job rules and modify the income according to the weekly test results.

Also the store will be the target of theft attempts. Use the std. rules for lifestyles and security there.