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How does one become a Shadowrunner?

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GloriousRuse

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« Reply #30 on: <09-23-16/1650:37> »
But it is the average runner that a PC plays, hence is of value when determining "how do you become a runner?"

As we noted earlier, the range of "stories" varies on how game-ist  vs. realistyou want to treat human learning models.

At the game end of the spectrum, you stab a peasant, all of a sudden your're a better swordsman. You win a local gymnastic competition, you're magically a better acrobat, etc.
This is the model that "they've done a few runs, so they got good" represents. It coalesces nicely with our desire for progression in terms of narrative and reward for playing.

It just isn't in any way accurate. While "gameday" experience is proven to be useful, it's not because the owner's technical skills got better as a result, it's because their ability to mentally frame events and sort through lessons learned inspires better overall decision-making in terms of both speed and results in similar situations.

Think of a pro athlete. If playing in a game made you throw/kick/stick a ball faster/harder/accurately (more dice), people would simply practice games all the time. In reality they spend so much time on skills training because three passes a game doesn't make you a better passer; five thousand passes in practice make you a better passer. The scrimmage is there to help the decisions on when to pass, who to pass to, what situations not to pass in, and apply those technical skills as part of an overall effort.

So, if we go with a realistic human learning model, you don't get char-gen good at the technical stuff because you've done a few runs; five firefights != NRA shooting champ. hence why the more realistic you get, the more and more tied to some sort of organization or lifestyle where you could conceivably invest the time and money in training and do so in an environment that supports it.  Thus "was a private eye, had to sling his gun on a few cases gone bad" nor "did some drive bys for the gang/mon/bleh" nor "used to be a KE cop, but left because he got tired of the paperwork...cops know how to shoot, right?" cannot justify a PI char with a 6 skill pistols pool in a non-gameist view on entry to running - Unless of course you assume there are super training facilities where in between runs they've been firing the hundreds or thousands of proper technique practice shots needed to get there. What it can justify is knowledge about the tactics that have worked in similar situations in the past, thinking quickly, overcoming hesitancy and willpower issues and so forth. 

All of which can be ignored in the name of game, but if we learned skills the way SR implies "he's been around the block" then street level sicarios would be the best shots in the planet by the time they killed their fortieth man. They aren't. Which means higher DPs significantly limit the "realistic" paths to runner hood.

Which then begs the question: what competitive advantage does a low DP runner have over any of the other multitudes of disposable violent entities available for use by a Johnson? Discretion/loyalty/professionalism, but for an untried runner, Johnson doesn't know that. You can see where it goes from there...
 


HobDobson

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« Reply #31 on: <09-24-16/1508:50> »
It just isn't in any way accurate. While "gameday" experience is proven to be useful, it's not because the owner's technical skills got better as a result, it's because their ability to mentally frame events and sort through lessons learned inspires better overall decision-making in terms of both speed and results in similar situations.

Part and parcel with that improved frame of reference, or rather, one more in line with reality vs. trids, is the realization that if the runner is going to survive doing X kinds of jobs they need to improve certain skills, pronto. That's not that hard to do in a world of sophisticated AIs supporting fully immersive VR. The 99% devoted to the sex trade and gaming and more pr0n easily subsidizes higher-prestige training tools that really exist to keep the code monkeys interested, maybe a defense contract or two. Those programs can run as fast as your wetware can cope ...

Some skills (assensing, astral combat) will still require a living subject to practice on. It sucks to be SINless if there's no one to watch your back/check up on you.


Which then begs the question: what competitive advantage does a low DP runner have over any of the other multitudes of disposable violent entities available for use by a Johnson? Discretion/loyalty/professionalism, but for an untried runner, Johnson doesn't know that. You can see where it goes from there...

If those DP are from Magic or Resonance, you take what's available.

If the job requires 18-30 DP tasks that can't be spread out, break out your contacts list. You should already know who's capable and how to reach them yourself. You should also already know that your target will also know who's capable and who could afford their services.

If the job only requires 8DP max in a couple of related skills, sub-contract the whole mess.

Otherwise, the more generalized runners (lower max DP for a given point buy) have a huge value in NOT being one-trick ponies. To the extent that they can double-up/back each other up, you may end up hiring fewer people for the job, which is better for operational security. At least you may benefit from having them all NOT defaulting on the same skills.

There should be many more candidates to choose from who can hit a lower given DP. More chummers chasing the same jobs means the price goes down. It also means the suspect list may substantially go up (This job is perfectly legal, and so you're hiring shadowrunners? Right.)

There can also be the rare case (plot twist!) of it being a low-DP chummer who has that unique skill, quality, or combo you need. One that maybe isn't magic- or resonance- based.


The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #32 on: <11-10-16/0430:55> »
GloriousRuse, I think you're also missing the fact that Shadowrun is a dystopia.

The guesttimates I've played with (and generally use) put 450-600 active shadowrunners of all levels - from just moving up out of the gang to 'quarter million minimum' - in Seattle's 3,000,000 people - 0.02% of the population.  That is, granted, a bit over five times your 0.0039%, but we're also talking a world that is significantly different than our current world.

But standard shadowrunners - the PCs - aren't at the bottom rung in that.  Oh, some may never have done 'this sort of thing' before, but depending on their origin story, they have gained skills through training, job experience, kill-or-die living, or whatever.  They're on the run from The Corp; the Men In Black would like a word.  They're the toughest rat in the nest.  Their hitch was up and they left to pursue vengeance on insert reason here.  The mob boss is giving them permission to expand their experience and contact network.

There are a LOT of potential reasons why a person becomes a shadowrunner, why they don't have a fixer contact, why they've never done this before.
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DeathofVirtue

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« Reply #33 on: <11-10-16/0816:54> »
Well covered wyrm I would tend to agree.

  One of my favourite characters started out as hired muscle for the yaks and was actually opposed to the main runners team, he didn't know a fixer for at least 10 or 15 games.  While a characters backstory and the state of entropy society is in are obviously important not everyone even started out with criminal intent, skills or contacts.

  The shadows only care about one thing, if we throw the drek at you, will you complete your goals and live to tell about it?  Somone who knows nothing about the shadows would still quickly meet a fixer of sorts if the answer to that question is yes, word travels fast, particularly in the shadows when knowing or not knowing something can be the difference between life and death and almost any information is worth something to somone.
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GloriousRuse

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« Reply #34 on: <11-14-16/1908:12> »
Ironically Wyrm, those are precisely the types of runners I'm saying are at least semi-realistic. People with significant backgrounds at the extreme business end of personal clandestine activities. Whether that's former spooks or Firewatch or whatever. Even their "on the down low" contacts are from the time when they A) had someone underwriting their mistakes, B) a large organization to keep them alive, and C) a large organization to get them very good. Its the runners who "were born rebels of awesomeness, did some crime, and now look like SEAL TEAM 6" who are only really viable if you use a completely game-ist learning model.


as for Hobs "need to improve skills pronto" with sim, I would point out that skillwires still command a substantial price and are still commonly referenced in the literature as being used for craftsman-esque labor. If you could simply VR learn kinesthetic skills with enough sims, I guarantee that corps would be paying a significantly lower price than the 60k a rating 3 skillwire takes. They would simply have the welder run VR sims for three weeks till he was awesome.

HobDobson

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« Reply #35 on: <11-14-16/2300:02> »
as for Hobs "need to improve skills pronto" with sim, I would point out that skillwires still command a substantial price and are still commonly referenced in the literature as being used for craftsman-esque labor. If you could simply VR learn kinesthetic skills with enough sims, I guarantee that corps would be paying a significantly lower price than the 60k a rating 3 skillwire takes. They would simply have the welder run VR sims for three weeks till he was awesome.

Of course skillwires would continue to command a high price. Unlike a professional training course in welding, a rating 3 set of skillwires allows the use of ANY active skill that does not depend on a resonance or magic rating. All that's needed is the skillwire installation plus the appropriate rating 3 activesoft. The cost of the software itself is trivial to a corporation, as it only needs to develop one copy (or a set of licenses) that can be dispatched to any wired worker on demand, or switched out whenever or wherever the company sees fit - either way, spreading out and reducing the per set costs in a way that few individuals could make use of.

So, to a corporation, the price per R3 skill available through any given employee approaches 1,000 nuyen. After all, there are over 60 active skills listed in the core book, and that's assuming the corporation is paying retail (not happening in any real-life scenario). It's true that not every employee would be equally effective for all skills - they wouldn't be equally or randomly distributed either! - but that's what application screening, employee physicals, and employee-driven health maintenance programs (or PT, depending on your POV) are for. Just need "good enough" in one skill at a time? Skillsofts are a way to go.

However, skillsofts only go up to rating 6, while a person that learns their skills (i.e., buys through karma earned) tops out at 12 or 13. It might take a career to hit 12 from a skill group (adult life modules appear to be designed to net 25 karma a year), but the 140 needed for a tradesman to beat top skillsofts in that group should be available after 6 years. That's without making a single shadow run. 

GloriousRuse

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« Reply #36 on: <11-15-16/1820:13> »
Hobs,

Point 1) Skill representations.

We know that the "average" meta has a professional skill of 4 in their primaries. It is in fact as far as we expect the average employee to go in many cases. Per the core:

"You’re comfortable with what you do and perform well under
normal pressures. Professional level for most jobs."

A skill of 12 is explicitly:

"You have reached the pinnacle of mortal achievement. This
expertise represents the top 0.00001% of all practitioners in
known history."

That is expressly NOT what an average tradesman can achieve in a career.

What a skill of 6 represents in relation to a normal career is questionable, as "you can easily sell your skills on the open market" is pretty vague, but i'll allow that it is probably achievable with sufficient motivation, time, training, and experience.

Which leads us to

Point 2) How do you get to skill 6?

Your  karma math represents the entirety years of your life being spent in an environment where you worked with that skill on a regular basis, with the appropriate resourcing and environment to actually Spend Karma so to speak. So, per your math a 6 in Automatics/Firearms would take someone who could spend 5/11 years shooting automatics/firearms  in a consistent environment, as one of their primary skills if not the primary skill (assuming 25 karma a year). Not many/any gangers are spending 5 straight years practicing shooting at a consistent rate for organizational and resource reasons. Or for that matter, not many hackers without some sort of large organizational coverage are practicing that intently either (fun story: Anonymous considers hacking to require about five years of experience to be proficient at, and most cyber security folks consider them to be low grade threats). You get the idea. You are basically cementing my point that one does not just decide to get real good at one of these things - it happens due to a fairly extensive background which provides the opportunity, need, and resources.

For what it's worth, a "B" Skills choice represents about 20 years of experience under the 25 Karma a year model...which again suggests that the "realistic" route into shadowrunning is via being a professional, not a guy who needed to make a payday loan happen.   
 

Glyph

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« Reply #37 on: <11-15-16/2310:31> »
One of the problems with Shadowrun skills is that they cost a flat rate, and improve at the same rate, even though different skills in real life take different lengths of time or levels of training to improve.  The other problem is that while there are rules for skill progression, there are no mechanics for skills degrading over time if not used regularly.

A skill of 6 can represent the slow progression of many years, but it can also represent comparatively short but intense, focused training.  A skill of 6 in SR5 is good but not exceptional (unlike SR4, where it was close to being the very best).

Truthfully, it is not skill alone that sets shadowrunners apart, but the fact that they are outliers in a world that has only begun to embrace transhumanism.  Magic, Resonance, and augmentations are what make runners stand out - and mechanically, they provide the bonuses that give shadowrunners those high dice pools.

Sendaz

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« Reply #38 on: <11-20-16/1933:54> »
If only there was still a Runner's University you could get your Street Diploma in.......
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Stoneglobe

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« Reply #39 on: <11-21-16/1424:03> »
If only there was still a Runner's University you could get your Street Diploma in.......

Love it. I'd never actually seen that one before :)
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Sendaz

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« Reply #40 on: <11-21-16/1634:02> »
If only there was still a Runner's University you could get your Street Diploma in.......

Love it. I'd never actually seen that one before :)
If you enjoyed that, you can see more of Blackjack's works thanks to the Wayback Machine here: http://web.archive.org/web/20070406102635/http://blackjack.dumpshock.com/

Part of the old Shadowrun Ring, bear in mind it was written for earlier editions so some of the terms or items depicted may not be around anymore...
Do you believe in a greater WIRELESS, an Invisible(WiFi) All Seeing(detecting those connected- at least if within 100'), All Knowing(all online data) Presence that we can draw upon for Wisdom(downloads & updates), Strength (wifi boni) and Comfort (porn) or do you turn your back on it  (Go Offline)?

Stoneglobe

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« Reply #41 on: <11-21-16/1704:33> »
If only there was still a Runner's University you could get your Street Diploma in.......

Love it. I'd never actually seen that one before :)
If you enjoyed that, you can see more of Blackjack's works thanks to the Wayback Machine here: http://web.archive.org/web/20070406102635/http://blackjack.dumpshock.com/

Part of the old Shadowrun Ring, bear in mind it was written for earlier editions so some of the terms or items depicted may not be around anymore...

Cool. I have played since 89 and the release of 1st  ;D Will have to take a look at some of this stuff
´Wonderful´, the Flatline said,´I never did like to do anything simple when I could do it ass-backwards.´ - William Gibson, Neuromancer
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.” - William Gibson