[kyoto kid]

...was wondering if more than one attribute can apply to performance skill depending on which specialisation is taken.

For example Charisma makes sense for singing, acting, or oratory, However what if one plays a musical instrument like say a piano, organ, violin, or drum kit?  Wouldn't Agility be the proper attribute to add to the pool instead?

A few skills do make use of different attributes based on conditions.  For example Computer is a Logic based skill but when doing a Data Search you use Intuition for the pool.  Similarly Arcana is Logic but when using it for initiation, the character's Intuition score is added to the skill pool instead.

[Beta]

To me, depends on context.  Generally when you are the entertainment: charisma, when you are supporting and all about the musical skill: I’d probably accept either one.  I specifically would allow agility in the supporting role to enable the shy or nerdy musical virtuoso who is maybe fantastic in the record studio or in the shadows near the back of the stage, but who really can’t entertain on their own.

But that would totally be a YGMV territory thing.

[kyoto kid]

...yeah this seems to be one of those grey areas. Performing on an instrument tends to be more physically oriented in nature, however phrasing and interpretation is also a major part of the total performance. it is almost as if one needs to use an average of both attributes however that would just make things more complex.

 I can see one being shy or introverted in face to face social situations yet having no trouble performing on stage as often you do not even see the audience and some even use techniques to forget that an audience is even present.

I used to love the old Shadowbeat supplement as it dealt with musical performance tests very well (of coruse Rockers were an actual playable archetype back then). However, those rules do not seem to translate very well due to the difference in mechanics between 2nd ed and 5th.

[Glyph]

One thing I dislike is that Performance and Gymnastics both have a Dance specialization (the Club Kid contact in Run Faster has the Performance skill with a specialization in Dance).  Too much ambiguity about which one would apply, and it raises the possibility that some GMs might rule you need both skills to be a truly "well-rounded" dancer.

[kyoto kid]

...yeah I can see your point on that.  Like performing on a musical instrument I would say Agility trumps Charisma so if it already is a subset of Gymnastics (Athletics Group), maybe that is where it belongs.  You could be the most charming person in the world, but if you have two left feet, you ain't gonna be much of a dancer.

On the opposite argument, it is sort of like requiring an Adept to have Arcana for initiating when the only specialisations listed for the skill relate to spellcasters and artificers. 

[Wakshaani]

In my perfect world, there would be three different entertainment skills:

PERFORM (Agility) which is for athletic skills, such as dance, skateboard tricks, juggling, etc.

ENTERTAIN (Charisma) which is speaking, comedy, singing, etc ... using your voice to influence an audience.

INSPIRE (Intuition) for art that's created 'remotely', like writing, sculpting, or painting.

Trouble is, trying to tie that to some kind of mechanic is tricky. (Note to self: Lobby for Shadowbeat II: Electric Boogaloo)

[kyoto kid]

...I like that breakdown.

So would solo musical instruments like piano, drums, violin, or guitar fall under "Performance" as well?

An updated Shadowbeat would be great (I still have the original)

I once played a freelancer snoop character who worked out pretty well. She put Audrey W. to shame and had Jack Q Trid Reporter as a contact as well as an indie news net affiliation.  She was able to get into places the rest of the team would have trouble accessing.and was great at doing legwork and gathering info. Was also a pretty good face on the side.

[Kiirnodel]

Do realize that what you seem to be calling "INSPIRE" is the Artisan skill. Not that your description is any different from what the Artisan skill exists as already. Artisan even lists Sculpting and Drawing as example specializations.

Additionally, a lot of what was listed under your "PERFORM" could also fall into Gymnastics (like dancing and skateboarding). Performances that involve a lot of technical movements, like many instruments (drums, violin, harp, etc.) are the actions that really fall into the nebulous zone between expressiveness (Charisma) and coordination (Agility) and as was already discussed a GM could conceivably call on both to determine how good a performance is.

Notably, I have actually called for all three attributes to be used (in succession) for a total performance.

• Performance + Intuition: Writing a song
• Performance + Agility: Playing Guitar
• Performance + Charisma: Singing

Factoring in all three results is what I used to determine how good the performance was overall. It was actually even more complicated than that (for instance the song-writing was an extended test, and the others were teamwork tests), but I won't get into it.

Also, before it gets called out: Yes, writing the song would normally be an Artisan test, but I let it fly under these circumstances since it was specifically being done to write a song for Performance purposes. Basically encouraging the creativity with one skill rather than punishing for not having the other "crafty" skill that is often seen as niche and useless.

[Wakshaani]

...I like that breakdown.

So would solo musical instruments like piano, drums, violin, or guitar fall under "Performance" as well?

An updated Shadowbeat would be great (I still have the original)

Yup. Guitar, violin, etc, absolutely falls under "Performance" in that slice. It harkens back to the ancient days of cyberpunk, where a guitarist with good hands also wound up being a decent swordguy or gunner, for instance. Pulling it off of charisma lets youhave a drummer who is, well, not a great-looking suave dude.

So, Ork drummer, Elves on singing, human with a cyberarm in guitar, you got a 6th world band ready to go.

It was a bit too much skillspam for 5th, especially since there's no real need for thre different skills all doing, effectively, the same thing (via the Artisan skill), but it's still something I'd have liked thematically.

Of course, *that* leads into a concept of "Skills that must be specialized, but cost half price", which is an experiment I want to try, but, I dunno if it'd work correctly or not. It'd include the performance skills, Exotic Weapons, Ettiquette, and a few more, and come with a backup Edge or two, which would cover things like "musical prodigy", letting you do related skills at -2 dice from something. So, if you had Perform: Guitar at 6, if you took that Edge, you'd have Perform (everything else) at 4. Price would be where it breaks even at probably three instruments, so those who want a big library (Prince!) could have it, while others would just learn one or two and call it a day.

But I'm probably babbling at this point, so I'll shush.

[kyoto kid]

....in her backstory, my character Leela is a highly gifted keyboard performer. (classical and early jazz).  It has yet to come into play but I gave her 4 levels of performance skill specialised in keyboards with a backup knowledge skill of classical and jazz music. If she were able to use her Agility (10), she would have a pool of 16 instead of 11 (CHA 5)  Her base performance skill would be 9 for other areas though I would give her a penalty on singing as she has the voice of a child (think Leeloo from 5th Element).

[Stoneglobe]

....in her backstory, my character Leela is a highly gifted keyboard performer. (classical and early jazz).  It has yet to come into play but I gave her 4 levels of performance skill specialised in keyboards with a backup knowledge skill of classical and jazz music. If she were able to use her Agility (10), she would have a pool of 16 instead of 11 (CHA 5)  Her base performance skill would be 9 for other areas though I would give her a penalty on singing as she has the voice of a child (think Leeloo from 5th Element).

So for me it would very much depend upon what you were trying to achieve. As a keyboard player who wanted to  produce a technically perfect rendition then I would allow the use of agility. If however you wanted to be a keyboard performer who was trying to entertain and engage an audience then I would require it to based off charisma.

There are many virtuoso musicians who are technically at the top of their field but are actually not entertaining or engaging as whilst they can play a piece note perfect (the use of agility) it carries no personality or emotional content which an audience can engage with (the use of charisma).

The same can be said for dancers or technically even skateboarders (if you haven't seen them watch either the documentary or the film about Team Zephyr. When they first go to a competition all the other contestants are performing tricks but there's no emotional content where as the Z-Boys were much more raw and engaging)

[ve4grm]

So for me it would very much depend upon what you were trying to achieve. As a keyboard player who wanted to  produce a technically perfect rendition then I would allow the use of agility. If however you wanted to be a keyboard performer who was trying to entertain and engage an audience then I would require it to based off charisma.

There are many virtuoso musicians who are technically at the top of their field but are actually not entertaining or engaging as whilst they can play a piece note perfect (the use of agility) it carries no personality or emotional content which an audience can engage with (the use of charisma).

The same can be said for dancers or technically even skateboarders (if you haven't seen them watch either the documentary or the film about Team Zephyr. When they first go to a competition all the other contestants are performing tricks but there's no emotional content where as the Z-Boys were much more raw and engaging)

Exactly this, IMO. It's not separated by type of performance (instrument/dance/singing) so much as the activity's desired result.

Performance + Intuition = Interesting (jazz improvisation, composing, choreographing)
Performance + Agility = Mechanically Impressive (acrobatic dance, magnificent guitar playing, drums)
Performance + Charisma = Engaging (actual performance for an audience)

So in a given band concert, you would need
- Intuition to set up the set list, choreograph the concert and lighting, and compose the songs in the first place.
- Agility for the backup performers to play and dance to the best of their ability.
- Charisma for the band leader/frontman/soloists/singers/lead dancers to make the whole thing engaging.

Of course, you'll never use Agility for singing for obvious reasons. If you want to do mechanically impressive singing, you'll probably want to use Body (stretching your singing range, holding a high note, etc are usually all about endurance).

[Stoneglobe]

I would argue that things like composition etc are actually specialisations of the artisan skill as creating something new is very different from being able to perform something that has been created. You can be a great performer but have no idea how to actually write a song or a brilliant writer who can't perform for toffee.

If the creation of something new comes from the perform skill then the worlds best actors would also be the worlds best playwrights.

[ve4grm]

I would argue that things like composition etc are actually specialisations of the artisan skill as creating something new is very different from being able to perform something that has been created. You can be a great performer but have no idea how to actually write a song or a brilliant writer who can't perform for toffee.

If the creation of something new comes from the perform skill then the worlds best actors would also be the worlds best playwrights.

Fair.