[PMárk]

Ok, I can't resist, but adding my 2cents to the conversation about D&D editions (because that is always fun, isn't it? ):

I got totally disinterested in D&D during the 4e era. Just not my game, not what I expect from D&D. I went over to Pathfinder, or kept playing 3.5, depending on the group.

5e got me very enthusiastic at first. I still think it's a good system, but I lost interest in it some time ago too. Why? Because while it fast, easy to play and good for new gamers, I started to see the drawbacks of that. Lack of character customization in later levels. Swingyness. Also minor things, like lack of real crafting rules, or the handling of magic items, which wasn't in line with my view on high fantasy settings.

Also, how WotC treats their settings and novel lines nowadays put me off, big time, because I always got invested in an RPG because of the setting and lore and novels, those are the things that get me wantng to play it.

So, I got disintersted in D&D 5e too. Right now, I think PF2e will be the best "D&D" out there for what I want from a D&D-esque game and I'll be able to play all the D&D settings with it too. I totally get all the reasons behind 5e's success (and they aren't just because it's so perfect, but it's pretty good in what it's doing), but it's just lacking for me.


As for SR and combat an lethality: it's funny, bcause a few months back someone complained here that SR seems to be too lethal for them. For me, it's totally okay. Yeah, the combat is more complex than D&D 5e, for example, but I like it. We got through fights pretty fast and felt it pretty lethal and cinematic even in SR3 and that is infinitely worse than SR5.

I do not want SR to be like D&D 5e or, heaven forbid, like Vampire 5th turned out just now (which is a totally over-simplified mess on an albeit good chassis, unfortunately). I like it in the place it is right now, though more polishing and working out the kinks in the math or in the unnecessarily overcomplicated rules (like grenades) is always welcomed!

[Iron Serpent Prince]

If that is really your opinion on SR, why exactly are you on this board?

Why am I on the board?  Seriously?
Let me know if this makes any sense to you:

I like Shadowrun.  I know it can be better.  It should be better.  Leaving it to the sycophants and apologists for the past three-ish years hasn't done it any good.

Speaking of which...

There are games that have a bad track record, but SR is not one of them, just FYI.

Case in point.

To go back to my reason for being on the forums:  Are you really suggesting that the money I paid Catalyst isn't valued as much as the other posters?

Or are you seriously suggesting that you so arrogantly have the right to determine who can post here and who can't?

Which of those high horses do you need knocked down from?

[Marcus]

If that is really your opinion on SR, why exactly are you on this board?

Why am I on the board?  Seriously?
Let me know if this makes any sense to you:

I like Shadowrun.  I know it can be better.  It should be better.  Leaving it to the sycophants and apologists for the past three-ish years hasn't done it any good.

Speaking of which...

There are games that have a bad track record, but SR is not one of them, just FYI.

Case in point.

To go back to my reason for being on the forums:  Are you really suggesting that the money I paid Catalyst isn't valued as much as the other posters?

Or are you seriously suggesting that you so arrogantly have the right to determine who can post here and who can't?

Which of those high horses do you need knocked down from?

I'm suggesting if you don't like the game and ya don't wanna read the rules, then contributing to the discussion of those rules  is not gonna very entertaining for you, lol. If you got something to say man say it. lol 

[Marcus]

Starfinder is a disaster. It clearly needs a complete re-write, the class balance is a trash fire. PF2 I hope will be better. But Lets be honest your gonna have the same issue with PF2 that we all had beginning of 5th. If your interested in adding depth to 5th I strongly recommend look vast amount of Homebrew Material, sure lot of it is bad but there are some diamonds in that rough.

My favorite thing to do with 5th, is run 2nd edition modes in 5th. There are so many 2nd edition mods. With a little practice you can do these almost seamlessly. Setting specific items cause the most trouble. But swap them or port them all is well.
 

[GLD]

Ok, I can't resist, but adding my 2cents to the conversation about D&D editions (because that is always fun, isn't it? ):

I got totally disinterested in D&D during the 4e era. Just not my game, not what I expect from D&D. I went over to Pathfinder, or kept playing 3.5, depending on the group.

5e got me very enthusiastic at first. I still think it's a good system, but I lost interest in it some time ago too. Why? Because while it fast, easy to play and good for new gamers, I started to see the drawbacks of that. Lack of character customization in later levels. Swingyness. Also minor things, like lack of real crafting rules, or the handling of magic items, which wasn't in line with my view on high fantasy settings.

Also, how WotC treats their settings and novel lines nowadays put me off, big time, because I always got invested in an RPG because of the setting and lore and novels, those are the things that get me wantng to play it.

So, I got disintersted in D&D 5e too. Right now, I think PF2e will be the best "D&D" out there for what I want from a D&D-esque game and I'll be able to play all the D&D settings with it too. I totally get all the reasons behind 5e's success (and they aren't just because it's so perfect, but it's pretty good in what it's doing), but it's just lacking for me.


As for SR and combat an lethality: it's funny, bcause a few months back someone complained here that SR seems to be too lethal for them. For me, it's totally okay. Yeah, the combat is more complex than D&D 5e, for example, but I like it. We got through fights pretty fast and felt it pretty lethal and cinematic even in SR3 and that is infinitely worse than SR5.

I do not want SR to be like D&D 5e or, heaven forbid, like Vampire 5th turned out just now (which is a totally over-simplified mess on an albeit good chassis, unfortunately). I like it in the place it is right now, though more polishing and working out the kinks in the math or in the unnecessarily overcomplicated rules (like grenades) is always welcomed!

Glad at least someone out there thinks PF2 looks alright. The Paizo forums are fucking war zone right now.

[GLD]

Starfinder is a disaster. It clearly needs a complete re-write, the class balance is a trash fire. PF2 I hope will be better. But Lets be honest your gonna have the same issue with PF2 that we all had beginning of 5th. If your interested in adding depth to 5th I strongly recommend look vast amount of Homebrew Material, sure lot of it is bad but there are some diamonds in that rough.

My favorite thing to do with 5th, is run 2nd edition modes in 5th. There are so many 2nd edition mods. With a little practice you can do these almost seamlessly. Setting specific items cause the most trouble. But swap them or port them all is well.

Done a few Starfinder sessions. Hit level 3 before the game was put on indefinite hold. I didn't notice any glaring issues myself, but as I said, I haven't had much an opportunity to get farther in.

[Reaver]

Well crap.

.... didn't know there was even a PF2 in the works.....

Great  more crap to spend money on! At this rate will never achieve my summer dream of keeping the corner beer store out of stock

[GLD]

Well crap.

.... didn't know there was even a PF2 in the works.....

Great  more crap to spend money on! At this rate will never achieve my summer dream of keeping the corner beer store out of stock

Playtest rules can be downloaded for free from the website. A lot of people are still in grieving over 3.X's last stand, cause the material released this far abandons a lot of that framework. So the response been very
.. passionate.

[Marcus]

PF2 will get beyond extensive play testing. It may or may not be enough to save it but I think it will,the core writers there are currently making the same mistakes with starfinder. If you are locking a hit curve then you don't push the curve the Nth. When you do that you force optimal only builds. 5th works well b/c it's very forgiving, a first time player can sit down build a character around every single stat and still pretty much be fine. Seriously I have seen it work.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

If that is really your opinion on SR, why exactly are you on this board?

Why am I on the board?  Seriously?
Let me know if this makes any sense to you:

I like Shadowrun.  I know it can be better.  It should be better.  Leaving it to the sycophants and apologists for the past three-ish years hasn't done it any good.

Speaking of which...

There are games that have a bad track record, but SR is not one of them, just FYI.

Case in point.

To go back to my reason for being on the forums:  Are you really suggesting that the money I paid Catalyst isn't valued as much as the other posters?

Or are you seriously suggesting that you so arrogantly have the right to determine who can post here and who can't?

Which of those high horses do you need knocked down from?

I'm suggesting if you don't like the game and ya don't wanna read the rules, then contributing to the discussion of those rules  is not gonna very entertaining for you, lol. If you got something to say man say it. lol

Wow...  I feel very sorry for you.

[PMárk]

Starfinder is a disaster. It clearly needs a complete re-write, the class balance is a trash fire. PF2 I hope will be better. But Lets be honest your gonna have the same issue with PF2 that we all had beginning of 5th. If your interested in adding depth to 5th I strongly recommend look vast amount of Homebrew Material, sure lot of it is bad but there are some diamonds in that rough.

My favorite thing to do with 5th, is run 2nd edition modes in 5th. There are so many 2nd edition mods. With a little practice you can do these almost seamlessly. Setting specific items cause the most trouble. But swap them or port them all is well.

I don't have the time or the inclination for digging through thousands of pages of homebrew/DM's Guild material to remedy the issues I have with the core game. Also, I don't think they'd remedy my issue, for example, the lack of character custumization on later levels, or the treating of magic itmes. They won't remedy WotC's treating of the settings and the lack of fiction. At the same time, I have games which are giving me what I want and even scratches the D&D itch. So, why bother? 5e is a good game, especially for newbies, but I'm just more in the PF2 target audience. That's okay.

So, in the same vein, I'm okay with SR being a complex game, but some clearing up is always good. That's what I would expect and want from a new edition, or from an anniversary edition, not going for the less-crunchy, more rules-light route.

Though, I'd be happy for having a second edition for Anarchy, or something, for people who like that style better!. The more angles the more people could get into this great setting and game, the better.

[PMárk]

Ok, I can't resist, but adding my 2cents to the conversation about D&D editions (because that is always fun, isn't it? ):

I got totally disinterested in D&D during the 4e era. Just not my game, not what I expect from D&D. I went over to Pathfinder, or kept playing 3.5, depending on the group.

5e got me very enthusiastic at first. I still think it's a good system, but I lost interest in it some time ago too. Why? Because while it fast, easy to play and good for new gamers, I started to see the drawbacks of that. Lack of character customization in later levels. Swingyness. Also minor things, like lack of real crafting rules, or the handling of magic items, which wasn't in line with my view on high fantasy settings.

Also, how WotC treats their settings and novel lines nowadays put me off, big time, because I always got invested in an RPG because of the setting and lore and novels, those are the things that get me wantng to play it.

So, I got disintersted in D&D 5e too. Right now, I think PF2e will be the best "D&D" out there for what I want from a D&D-esque game and I'll be able to play all the D&D settings with it too. I totally get all the reasons behind 5e's success (and they aren't just because it's so perfect, but it's pretty good in what it's doing), but it's just lacking for me.


As for SR and combat an lethality: it's funny, bcause a few months back someone complained here that SR seems to be too lethal for them. For me, it's totally okay. Yeah, the combat is more complex than D&D 5e, for example, but I like it. We got through fights pretty fast and felt it pretty lethal and cinematic even in SR3 and that is infinitely worse than SR5.

I do not want SR to be like D&D 5e or, heaven forbid, like Vampire 5th turned out just now (which is a totally over-simplified mess on an albeit good chassis, unfortunately). I like it in the place it is right now, though more polishing and working out the kinks in the math or in the unnecessarily overcomplicated rules (like grenades) is always welcomed!

Glad at least someone out there thinks PF2 looks alright. The Paizo forums are fucking war zone right now.

I stopped paying attention to the forums roughly on day 2. I can use that time more productively. What I see, I mostly like, in the playtest. Not everything, but most of it. PF2 has the potential to be my favorite "D&D edition" so far.

One thing I don't like is reducing spellcasting for dragons. I just always preferred dragons as mighty spellcasters, keepers of ancient magic. Yeah, no wonder my favorite dragons are our old lizards in SR, among all the rpgs.

[PMárk]

Well crap.

.... didn't know there was even a PF2 in the works.....

Great  more crap to spend money on! At this rate will never achieve my summer dream of keeping the corner beer store out of stock

Playtest rules can be downloaded for free from the website. A lot of people are still in grieving over 3.X's last stand, cause the material released this far abandons a lot of that framework. So the response been very
.. passionate.

Well, on some level, I can understand that. I went to PF, because I didn't like 4e, but liked 3e. Then I tried 5e, find it good, but lacking and went back to PF. PF2 seems to be the next step of evolution for the 3.5 chasis to me. It's not the same, but at places better and not radically different, nor lacking the good kind of complexity and depth.

I'm not saying it's perfect, far from it and it needs the extensive playtest. But I like the direction. I hope it won't be a bummer as 7th Sea 2e was and V5 is right now. I've had enough of not liking my favorite game's new editions for a time, would be good to get something new I actually like, for a change.

[Marcus]

I was gonna say if you want rules light SR, then Anarchy is right there for you.

With the right table and the right GM, a narrative system can be an amazing game.  But it is extremely hard to find. For me SR is great b/c we have a good strong established set of rules. At con I can sit down at the table talk to some players and a gm and have a pretty good idea how things are gonna go, and I enjoy that a lot about SR.

Anarchy is exactly that. Who knows?

[Mirikon]

PF2 will get beyond extensive play testing. It may or may not be enough to save it but I think it will,the core writers there are currently making the same mistakes with starfinder. If you are locking a hit curve then you don't push the curve the Nth. When you do that you force optimal only builds. 5th works well b/c it's very forgiving, a first time player can sit down build a character around every single stat and still pretty much be fine. Seriously I have seen it work.

The problem is that works well for a convention setting, or where you have a rotating crowd where you don't know who will be playing what week to week, but it absolutely shits on people who enjoy high level play, customization, and the epicness that you could get up to in 3.X when you started venturing into the planes.

5E works extremely well if you were one of the people who played the E5/E6 variants in 3.X, where you basically stopped leveling after 5 or 6. It keeps the low-level feel all the way through the game. The lack of magic items and customization options channeling people into one of three choices per class is great if you want to be able to throw characters into other games and know they're balanced, playing musical tables and all. But it gets old for a lot of people when everything ends up being the same, especially if they prefer high level play.

I was gonna say if you want rules light SR, then Anarchy is right there for you.

With the right table and the right GM, a narrative system can be an amazing game.  But it is extremely hard to find. For me SR is great b/c we have a good strong established set of rules. At con I can sit down at the table talk to some players and a gm and have a pretty good idea how things are gonna go, and I enjoy that a lot about SR.

Anarchy is exactly that. Who knows?

And that is why I would love for them to keep Anarchy around for the people who like a 'simplified' game, and bring back the crunch and customization of 4th when 5th dies in a fire and 6th comes along. Let Anarchy be the rules-light noob version, and then take the training wheels off when they're ready to get into customization in the real system.