[Redwulfe]

Yes that is what I was trying to say. I know that drawing a weapon is a Major but a QuickDraw holster supposedly makes it a minor. So you get to do what would normally be a major but with one of your minors instead so this effectively gives you another major worth of action because of a price of gear you have.

I don’t think they would do this with an attack but I did here something about being able to spend edge to make an split without penalty. Don’t no what that penalty was but it may be another way to get more effective attacks.

[Michael Chandra]

Yes that is what I was trying to say. I know that drawing a weapon is a Major but a QuickDraw holster supposedly makes it a minor. So you get to do what would normally be a major but with one of your minors instead so this effectively gives you another major worth of action because of a price of gear you have.

I don’t think they would do this with an attack but I did here something about being able to spend edge to make an split without penalty. Don’t no what that penalty was but it may be another way to get more effective attacks.

An efficient way to use Multiple Attacks isn't the same as being granted extra Majors though. Just like in 5e Suppressive Fire doesn't mean you're getting extra attacks, or AoE spells. And I highly doubt we'll ever be able to do an attack as Minor since THAT would break everything.

[kyoto kid]

The changes to Initiative may put off the fans of high-speed Streetsams and Gun-Kata Adepts, but they will also make Combat easier to resolve and keep everyone else more engaged. I also like it that Movement is now an Action, many players are confused by a system where movement is disconnected from Actions. I just hope that there will be enough usefull Simple Minor Actions to make having just 2 or 3 of them profitable for mundanes. A conversion Rate of 4 Minor to 1 Major is really steep, I wish they would go with 3... Maybe a thing for a houserule.

My biggest fear is about this Edge thing. It could be just the right thing in theory, but there´s just too many signs in the air right now that the devs have completely overdone it with that mechanic.

...[bold emphasis, mine]  I have to agree, it puts one more layer into the mechanics that wasn't there before, sort of defeating the idea of streamlining ans players and GMs now have to allocate Edge (both base and acquired) and figure out what actions to use when, every turn.  Don't like movement being an action, even D&D keeps it separate. Characters with little to no meat world initiative boosting (read technomancers and deckers) are going to end up eating grenades or AOE spells when one gets tossed, particularly as armour has no effect any more.  I'm all for making the game more challenging, but not CGL's version of Paranoia.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The changes to Initiative may put off the fans of high-speed Streetsams and Gun-Kata Adepts, but they will also make Combat easier to resolve and keep everyone else more engaged. I also like it that Movement is now an Action, many players are confused by a system where movement is disconnected from Actions. I just hope that there will be enough usefull Simple Minor Actions to make having just 2 or 3 of them profitable for mundanes. A conversion Rate of 4 Minor to 1 Major is really steep, I wish they would go with 3... Maybe a thing for a houserule.

My biggest fear is about this Edge thing. It could be just the right thing in theory, but there´s just too many signs in the air right now that the devs have completely overdone it with that mechanic.

...[bold emphasis, mine]  I have to agree, it puts one more layer into the mechanics that wasn't there before, sort of defeating the idea of streamlining ans players and GMs now have to allocate Edge (both base and acquired) and figure out what actions to use when, every turn.  Don't like movement being an action, even D&D keeps it separate. Characters with little to no meat world initiative boosting (read technomancers and deckers) are going to end up eating grenades or AOE spells when one gets tossed, particularly as armour has no effect any more.  I'm all for making the game more challenging, but not CGL's version of Paranoia.

They should just let people dodge grenades in some fashion without having to use a interrupt, just a standard defense test of some kind. Maybe penalty dice, maybe you can’t avoid it entirely but can just reduce the damage. It’s not like people are actually dodging bullets. They are making themselves a harder target. You can make a similar rational for area of effects. D&d has has saving throws for this kind of thing, so I don’t think reducing the effect through dodging strains gamers credulity.

Hell the idea you can interrupt and run 8 meters in .1 seconds is more far fetched to me. I don’t see many movie grenades in shadowrun where they bounce and land sitting around for 3 seconds. It’s airburst etc.

[kyoto kid]

In 5e combat rarely made it past the second phase, so Street sams just got to go first.
I thought it was a need too at first, but with combat being deadlier now with armor not soaking damage they probably won’t need the extra phases.
But to be honest I think 3e/5e’s initiative system was the best so far

I guess people design fights differently than I do.  But in my games, fights almost always take multiple combat turns.

I'm worried about the math on this and the soak rolls.

On this side 4 minors to one major means you need wired 2 to get 2 majors.  This can get bad especially without free actions, but I assume you need to draw a gun(major normally, minor with a quick draw), maybe move a bit, grab cover etc.  So really you just have 1 major which a unaugmented nobody has as well, which seems like a really crappy use of essence and money.  Mage with his zippy spell at least takes the draw gun aspect out of the equation and has a better chance to go straight to attacking.

Soak rolls sounded okay at first with the Ares predator doing 3, but if an assault rifle does 5 and 7 or 8 with a burst(apparently more than a assault cannon lame) it doesn't take many net hits to get you to 10 boxes.  Rolling 3 dice means a lot of one shot kills by taking the fairly easy action burst fire. And it kind of doesn't matter how experienced you are, not that I foresee people getting experienced. It feels like the GM is going to have to constantly make bad decisions for the opposition in order for the PCs to survive. Sure I could do auto fire but bullets cost money so we are under orders to only use single shot.

The math on the surface seems really bad.

..I agree.  One of the things I came out of the live discussion last week with was that trolls will effectively rule the game.  It sounds as if the character is not a buffed up troll he/she will likely become a customer for a fitted body bag.  Just seeing what the group fire option for grunts alone did during the play test was scary (nearly slagging a fairly decent vehicle with handguns, crikey in 3E you needed something more powerful than an SMG to cause vehicular damage).  Meanwhile PCs don't seem to have this option (even suppression fire doesn't exist any more, you have to use full auto and split your pool between targets).

Now I don't mind a bit more of a challenge now and then, but the potential for a high level of lethality as I saw sort of ruins enthusiasm for the game (which is why after several sessions, I quit playing Halo as I rarely ever could get clear of the drop ship and find cover before being dropped).  May as well just play miniatures battles as I'm not into making up new characters with new backgrounds and personalities every couple weeks.

[kyoto kid]

I think you will find it ok, there are 22 universal minor actions, 12 of which are actions that will most useful for the combat focus types (ie street sams)

During playtesting I found with my group that yes it nerfs the swired street sams a bit on the offense but offers a good bit of tactical choices. For example the runner with 4 minor actions can move, take aim, actively dodge, and attack multiple targets or other combinations

...so it now takes a minor action to dodge where it took no action before?  I sense high PC body counts if that is so.  OK let's go to the Decker who has 1 major and maybe 1 or 2 minor actions in the meat world.

During Missions play, I have seen a second adage to the "Geek the Mage First" which I refer to as "Geek the Decker/Technomancer" Next".

yes Full Defense still exist but it is a major action but there are multiple minor interrupt type actions that can be used defensively including some counterattack options ... I just can't post the exact details here

...so much for that Decker with a single full and maybe 2 minor actions in the meat world doing anything to contribute to a combat.  In 5e, it was a declared interrupt action that lasted the entire combat turn and if you had multiple passes, you still had a chance to do something instead of just dodging bullets every combat turn.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

crikey in 3E you needed something more powerful than an SMG to cause vehicular damage).

You went too far back.

In 5e a Hold Out pistol can reliably damage many stock vehicles.  A hold out pistol is DV 6, with 1 Net Hit required to to even have a chance of triggering a Damage Resistance Test, makes it a minimum of DV 7.

Many stock vehicles have 6 Armor or less (let's take the Shin-Hyung as an example) meaning if the Hold Out pistol hits, it triggers a Damage Resistance Test against a minimum DV of 7.  With 16 dice (stock Shin-Hyung has 10 Body, 6 Armor) the vehicle is very likely going to suffer at least 2 damage.  And at 1425 Nuyen per box of damage repair, that is a repair bill of at least 2850 Nuyen.  From a Hold Out pistol.

[kyoto kid]

2. no ... technomancers didn't get as much love as I wanted to give them due to space limitations in the book, they are definitely matrix powerhouses.

In 5E TMs usually had 3 ways of doing a Matrix thing.  Thread a CF, Order a Sprite, or just Hack it.  And they had to pay for all three of those things because Threading and Sprites both had gaps that couldn't be covered (Until Kill Code came out). 

Couple that with Living Persona Limits, and less access to dice pool Augmentations TMs were is rough shape for a long while. 

If TMs have a Resonance action for everything in the Matrix, they're probably in good shape.  *or* if they have access to similar but different Hacking Dice Pool buffs as Deckers, then they'll be fine as well.

In 5th, the Primed Charge CF caught TMs Hacking pools up to Deckers.  But there was still a gap in Resonance actions, couldn't get a Mark on a Host (Technoshaman Stream/Greater Sprite was the only way), and File Protection / Data Bombs didn't have a RAW way around them unless the GM let the Editor CF bypass them (decent argument for allowing that).  So essentially, you needed to still be a red-hot Hacker to handle Hosts and some files, and still needed Threading, Compiling, Registering, and a high Resonance.  So you wound up behind on Skill points, SAPs, and Attributes compared to a Decker.  It was a tough gap to overcome.

...my long running issue with TMs was survivability in the meat world.  They were effectively "awakened" characters who like mages and adepts suffered losses to their primary abilities if they had any augmentations.  However, unlike mages and adepts they didn't have access to spell and power buffs to make up for it. All they pretty much had to save their hoops when the lead started flying was armour (which in 6E has been effectively nerfed).  As a TM's living persona was based off their Mental Attributes, Physical Attributes became secondary, if not dump stats, thus limiting how much physical protection they could wear as well making then "squishier" than even spell slingers) .

Supposedly TMs were an offshoot of the Otaku (there was even the quality Otaku to TM in Data Trails).  In 3E Otaku not only received two pieces of headware (Datajack and ASIST module) but were encouraged to get additional cyber augmentations to help them survive the physical world (which did not negatively impact their Resonance, and in some cases actually enhanced their abilities).  Unfortunately this was changed when Resonance was effectively likened to Mana in the Matrix.

[kyoto kid]

NPC are going to out number pcs in SR. This is a fact of the game, inherent to the concept. Initiative has meaning but action economy is more important. Everything seen to date shows that pcs won’t be dropping enemies as they did before. A character takes two attacks before the enemy goes is fine. If they are smart they will focus down on one target and remove it. But as far as soak goes pc that get are far more likely to take damage. That means it’s worse for npcs to get attacks off. Add in the edge options that greatly increase glitch likelyhood regardless of pool size and suddenly you have GMs who can turn a simple gang fight into high probability of pc injury or possibly even loss. Now sure some GMs will follows Hobbes’ advice but I’m betting many more will attempt to run as they always have and will be shocked when half or the whole table of PCs ends up dead.

...that is my concern as well particularly with the Group attack option.

[kyoto kid]

crikey in 3E you needed something more powerful than an SMG to cause vehicular damage).

You went too far back.

In 5e a Hold Out pistol can reliably damage many stock vehicles.  A hold out pistol is DV 6, with 1 Net Hit required to to even have a chance of triggering a Damage Resistance Test, makes it a minimum of DV 7.

Many stock vehicles have 6 Armor or less (let's take the Shin-Hyung as an example) meaning if the Hold Out pistol hits, it triggers a Damage Resistance Test against a minimum DV of 7.  With 16 dice (stock Shin-Hyung has 10 Body, 6 Armor) the vehicle is very likely going to suffer at least 2 damage.  And at 1425 Nuyen per box of damage repair, that is a repair bill of at least 2850 Nuyen.  From a Hold Out pistol.

However a Toyota Gopher (at least in 5E) has a 14 body and 10 armour (total of 24 dice) that little pop gun would probably just scratch the paint.  Even a Predator would be hard pressed to cause enough damage to cripple it let alone totally slag it.  However in the running combat with all the Ancients where they had the Grouped attack option using only Predators, they damn near killed it. I'm sorry but all 9 gangers maintaining control of their motorcycles in a running gun fight at 70 mph being that good of a shot stretches the sense of plausibility just a bit thin.

[Michael Chandra]

...so it now takes a minor action to dodge where it took no action before?

Dodge already cost you 5 Initiative so I'm not sure why you're claiming it didn't take anything.

sort of defeating the idea of streamlining ans players and GMs now have to allocate Edge (both base and acquired) and figure out what actions to use when, every turn.

If you can track damage and ammo, you can track Edge. Just use poker chips or anything for it and it's easy. If you already are declaring the entire game condemned, honestly I doubt you ever were going to actually give it a fair try.

[kyoto kid]

Dude spends all of his resources on fighting and everyone wants to be 90% of that for 1/10th the cost.

That's kind of the problem with minimax-driven games in a nutshell; players want and expect that if they build their pc towards being expert at one narrow thing, they'll be much better at it than any of the others. Which seems fair. OTOH, combat is such a regular occurrence in most rpgs that the GM is then  faced with a choice: make the bad guys a challenge for the one pc and potentially gank everyone else, OR make the bad guys a challenge for the rest of the group and watch as they never really get to do anything because the one expert wipes the floor with them. So being the One True Combat Monster can have the side effect of making combat scenes unfun or problematic for everyone else.

What's the solution? Well there isn't one that's going to please everyone. A GM solution is to try and include scenes that let every PC shine at their own expertise.  Many games limit the amount of expertise in one thing you can acquire out of the gate (SR's "max 6 skill" is sort of that, but it's a weak control - many other games control it stronger). Magic-including games often allow mages to achieve combat expertise via magic; "two ways to one result".

SR is particularly vulnerable to the expertise issue because of how you can layer four different things: attributes + skills + ware + drugs. (or ...+magic + drugs). How do solve? Should we bother?  Dunno. But missions could probably set the standard for  more balanced PC's as a priority, if it wanted, by scenario design.

...the same happens in Missions as well. We have a few players that build such outrageously min maxed monsters, many of the rest of us often feel more like spectators rather than participants.  Yeah we still get the rewards and contacts, but often feel pretty useless and wonder why we took the time out to attend the session. NT was expected to tone this down somewhat, but it really hasn't.  Now I don't expect my characters to be the "star" of every mission (I generally build very solid support characters), but it would be nice to feel like they can make a worthwhile contribution once in a while.  Even backup musicians get their chance to shine on stage.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

However a Toyota Gopher (at least in 5E) has a 14 body and 10 armour (total of 24 dice) that little pop gun would probably just scratch the paint.  Even a Predator would be hard pressed to cause enough damage to cripple it let alone totally slag it.

*Sigh*  Alright, let's do the (5e) math.

Gopher, 14 Body. 10 Armor.
Predator, DV 8, AP -1 (meaning the Gopher can only treat its armor as 9.)

1 Net hit isn't enough to force a Damage Resistance Test, so we move it up to 2 Net Hits.
That sets the minimum DV of a successful attack at 10.  With 23 dice, the Gopher is is gonna roll about 7 to 8 to Resist, meaning 2 to 3 boxes of damage from each successful Predator attack.  As an aside, that works out to 2500 to 3750 Nuyen repair costs minimum per successful attack.

Now, you can debate whether or not the Ancients should have been hitting, that is another conversation entirely.  Assuming they can hit though, damaging to slagging the Gopher (in 5e)?  No problem what so ever.

[kyoto kid]

...so it now takes a minor action to dodge where it took no action before?

Dodge already cost you 5 Initiative so I'm not sure why you're claiming it didn't take anything.

sort of defeating the idea of streamlining ans players and GMs now have to allocate Edge (both base and acquired) and figure out what actions to use when, every turn.

If you can track damage and ammo, you can track Edge. Just use poker chips or anything for it and it's easy. If you already are declaring the entire game condemned, honestly I doubt you ever were going to actually give it a fair try.

...Run For Your Life to avoid an AOE attack is an Interrupt Action which costs 5 Initiative.  A "normal"(INT + REA) dodge during combat doesn't (or Missions has been doing it entirely wrong for years).  You just lose one die from your base dodge pool for every time you try to avoid an incoming attack (in addition to any subtracted for the attacker's firing mode and wound effects). 

[kyoto kid]

However a Toyota Gopher (at least in 5E) has a 14 body and 10 armour (total of 24 dice) that little pop gun would probably just scratch the paint.  Even a Predator would be hard pressed to cause enough damage to cripple it let alone totally slag it.

*Sigh*  Alright, let's do the (5e) math.

Gopher, 14 Body. 10 Armor.
Predator, DV 8, AP -1 (meaning the Gopher can only treat its armor as 9.)

1 Net hit isn't enough to force a Damage Resistance Test, so we move it up to 2 Net Hits.
That sets the minimum DV of a successful attack at 10.  With 23 dice, the Gopher is is gonna roll about 7 to 8 to Resist, meaning 2 to 3 boxes of damage from each successful Predator attack.  As an aside, that works out to 2500 to 3750 Nuyen repair costs minimum per successful attack.

Now, you can debate whether or not the Ancients should have been hitting, that is another conversation entirely.  Assuming they can hit though, damaging to slagging the Gopher (in 5e)?  No problem what so ever.

...however even with the lower weapon damage rating of 3P, they managed to collectively inflict what sounded like more than half of the vehicle's total physical condition track (not sure what the the Gopher's body and armour is in 6E).  In 5E maybe one or two might have hit as there would be modifiers for combat in a vehicle chase (which of course no longer likely exist as modifiers have been replaced by Edge).