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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #120 on: <05-12-19/1819:29> »
...Run For Your Life to avoid an AOE attack is an Interrupt Action which costs 5 Initiative.  A "normal"(INT + REA) dodge during combat doesn't (or Missions has been doing it entirely wrong for years).
Dodge LITERALLY is an Interrupt Action which costs 5 Initiative. Page 186. SR5 Core. So again, why are you claiming it's a free action in SR5 and thus a problem that it's a Minor in SR6?
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #121 on: <05-12-19/1842:19> »
In 5E maybe one or two might have hit as there would be modifiers for combat in a vehicle chase.

Depends on the GM.  If the 5e GM made a single roll for the Ancients (to streamline rolls), and there were 5 Ancients (I did not see / hear the example you are referencing, simply guessing at the amount of gangers) and the GM got 2 Net Hits...
That would be about 10 to 15 damage against the Gophers 19 CM (in 5e).

Sounds about right from what I know of the intentions of 6e, and what you have said the example was.

It may "feel" different, it may even play different, but it sounds like 6e is right on par with 5e - for better or worse.
« Last Edit: <05-12-19/2031:35> by Iron Serpent Prince »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #122 on: <05-12-19/1847:31> »
...Run For Your Life to avoid an AOE attack is an Interrupt Action which costs 5 Initiative.  A "normal"(INT + REA) dodge during combat doesn't (or Missions has been doing it entirely wrong for years).
Dodge LITERALLY is an Interrupt Action which costs 5 Initiative. Page 186. SR5 Core. So again, why are you claiming it's a free action in SR5 and thus a problem that it's a Minor in SR6?

You are talking about different things. KK was/is under the impression that a standard defense test(which they are calling a dodge) is a action in 6e. You are talking about the action that gives bonus dice to your standard defense test.

Redwulfe

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« Reply #123 on: <05-12-19/1920:27> »
Yes that is what I was trying to say. I know that drawing a weapon is a Major but a QuickDraw holster supposedly makes it a minor. So you get to do what would normally be a major but with one of your minors instead so this effectively gives you another major worth of action because of a price of gear you have.

I don’t think they would do this with an attack but I did here something about being able to spend edge to make an split without penalty. Don’t no what that penalty was but it may be another way to get more effective attacks.
An efficient way to use Multiple Attacks isn't the same as being granted extra Majors though. Just like in 5e Suppressive Fire doesn't mean you're getting extra attacks, or AoE spells. And I highly doubt we'll ever be able to do an attack as Minor since THAT would break everything.

fully agree I am not trying to say the attack is where you would get the effectively extra major. that is not what I am saying.

I am saying that taking a major and using a piece of equipment to make it a minor is a way to effectively get more majors. Technically they are minors now, but as an action, they were originally Majors and the equipment allows you to treat it as a minor.

Normally you could: draw a weapon(major), move(minor) and something else(minor).

With a quickdraw holster, you could: Draw a weapon(Major degraded to minor), take aim(minor), and Shoot the mage(Major).

Because of the quickdraw holster, you can basically, not actually, get to do two major actions. though you lose a minor the effect is now almost equivalent to a major.

From my understanding, downgrade an attack. I agree and though I don't have the book, I highly doubt that you will be able to downgrade an attack with as the other poster mentioned by using a smart link.

My unrelated contemplation was about multi-attack. I heard that there was an edge action that removed the penalty from multiple attacks. I don't know if this is the split dice penalty allowing you to make two full pool attacks against multiple targets, which I doubt, or if there was a penalty to attacking multiple targets that would be removed from dice pool before the split, which I think is what it is.

If it was the first one though that would mean you basically get multiple attacks in a single (major)attack action. I don't think this is what it is but I don't have the book so I wouldn't know.

I do though think you could build a character with a large enough pool that splitting will be an effective method to get an attack against two targets and therefore multiple attacks for the cost of 1 major. with the edge, you may also be able to add your edge to each pool since it is the same boost to make the multi-attack even better. once again this is just speculation since I don't have access to the book.

All in all, I think there will be many ways to manipulate the system to improve your action economy in interesting ways which to me sounds interesting enough to look into the system and give it a chance.
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Marcus

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« Reply #124 on: <05-12-19/1925:44> »
Avoidance has always been more effective then soak. My question is what is the action cost of an interrupt action?
Are they Majors? minors? Are borrowing them from next turn? It seems very odd to me that in game where they are clearly stomping to hell action economy. I feel sure interrupt are not going to be free.

As to Edge ever sense they said glitch on 2, it was already obvious edge was way out of hand. We haven't seen system stuff that bad sense the early days of StoryTeller.
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tenchi2a

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« Reply #125 on: <05-12-19/2044:34> »
I don't know who you're referring to with 'unlike what people claim'? Isn't the whole debate about that high initiative boosting people can do that, starting at 2 extra dice?

Also, interesting about the 5 Minors max. Could you tell where you got that from? That's a bit disappointing because it means the fifth Initiative die literally only adds Initiative and that sounds weird.
On the first part I was tried when I was writing this and may have miss read a earlier post.
As for the "Max 5 minor action" thing, this was confirmed by Jason Hardy (Line Developer) during the Shadowrun 6th Edition Interview Q&A on Shadowcasters Network.

tenchi2a

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« Reply #126 on: <05-12-19/2056:57> »
I also think some people are over reacting to the new edge rules.
Jason Hardy also stated that the max edge you will get per turn no matter the times you can earn it is +2.
You will also be limited to only carrying a maximum of 7 edge at anyone time so it's in your best interest to use it not horde it.
So with these limits I don't see edge tracking as being hard at all, and it seem to be a lot better then adding and subtraction all the situational modifiers that can stack-up during a combat round in 5th.
Overall, with the limits it seems like it will do a lot to streamline combat.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #127 on: <05-13-19/0021:01> »
I don't know who you're referring to with 'unlike what people claim'? Isn't the whole debate about that high initiative boosting people can do that, starting at 2 extra dice?

Also, interesting about the 5 Minors max. Could you tell where you got that from? That's a bit disappointing because it means the fifth Initiative die literally only adds Initiative and that sounds weird.
On the first part I was tried when I was writing this and may have miss read a earlier post.
As for the "Max 5 minor action" thing, this was confirmed by Jason Hardy (Line Developer) during the Shadowrun 6th Edition Interview Q&A on Shadowcasters Network.
If people can still get 5d6 but the last die gives no Minor, I know my first houserule already.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #128 on: <05-13-19/0058:42> »
The lack of free actions kind of bothers me. Like how many combat turns does it take to do something basic like get out of a car and shoot someone.

Open door minor action. Unbuckle major action stand up minor?major?  Draw gun major/minor. Shoot major.


Jesus people seem kind of uncoordinated. It starts to take 6+ Seconds to do something that can be done in real life in 3 because normal people can multitask.

kyoto kid

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« Reply #129 on: <05-13-19/0141:22> »
The lack of free actions kind of bothers me. Like how many combat turns does it take to do something basic like get out of a car and shoot someone.

Open door minor action. Unbuckle major action stand up minor?major?  Draw gun major/minor. Shoot major.


Jesus people seem kind of uncoordinated. It starts to take 6+ Seconds to do something that can be done in real life in 3 because normal people can multitask.
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Banshee

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« Reply #130 on: <05-13-19/0926:37> »

Also, interesting about the 5 Minors max. Could you tell where you got that from? That's a bit disappointing because it means the fifth Initiative die literally only adds Initiative and that sounds weird.

just a note for you all it is NOT a max of 5 minor actions, the limiter on it the max of 5 initiative dice which by extension makes it a limit of 6 minor actions (as a base) but there is no actual verbiage that limits the number of actions you can get which leaves it open ended for those special abilities and gear that may give you just a straight up extra action ... and YES there is gear that says "when you do X with Y gain a bonus minor action."
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #131 on: <05-13-19/0942:21> »

Also, interesting about the 5 Minors max. Could you tell where you got that from? That's a bit disappointing because it means the fifth Initiative die literally only adds Initiative and that sounds weird.

just a note for you all it is NOT a max of 5 minor actions, the limiter on it the max of 5 initiative dice which by extension makes it a limit of 6 minor actions (as a base) but there is no actual verbiage that limits the number of actions you can get which leaves it open ended for those special abilities and gear that may give you just a straight up extra action ... and YES there is gear that says "when you do X with Y gain a bonus minor action."

Well, that's interesting. Thanks for the clarifications. It does mean that until we get the book there is not a very good picture of the rules to be able to draw out any conclusion on what the action economy will look like. I guess I will just have to wait and see.
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Banshee

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« Reply #132 on: <05-13-19/0944:37> »
Well Banshee you may feel it's not relevant, but to me if you're thought process is that TM didn't work in 5e b/c players "felt like they didn't work"  vs recognition of the fact that TM was a failed Archetype for most of 5e. This is extremely relevant to how I see things going, any HR Professional or Industrial Engineer will tell you; Past behavior are strong indicators of future out comes.

I'm seriously looking for a reason to hope 6e isn't going to follow the TM example in 5e, the math thus far has me very concerned. You're free to dismiss me of course. I know gamers are always cranky about new editions, and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to engage about something they created; and I recognize NDA's  have you locked down. I been there, I'm an engineer I design stuff ever day and review and release are both painful processes.

I have supported SR and the devs for a long time on here, I'd be happy to do it again. I and probably many others want a reason to believe 6e is going to be better then 5e. A couple streamers, some podcasts, and the army of Catalyst demo team agents aren't going sway my opinion, I've argued with these jokers for years. Math, fact or a good argument can change my mind. So to you why is 6e better?  How is this an improvement over the edition that we have seen before? By all means skip the specifics but to your mind why is it better?

feel versus actual comes done to a simple choice of GM and Player style is where I come from with my statement. If you feel that a character that only average 12-14 ( and not the 20+) dice to accomplish anything they need to do as a focus of your archehtype then yes TM's are unplayable in 5E. I was not involved in the design of 5E but I have spent a lot of time conversing with those that did and it was built on a probability curve that was based on the average player dice pool would be 12-16 dice. Regardless though the biggest issue with TM's in 5 was the simple fact that they were confusing and misunderstood by the average player.

My biggest goal was to not only make the matrix more user friendly and easier to understand for the average player who may or may not understand how real world cyber security works ... and hopefully I succeeded but that judgement will have to wait until enough people have seen the new stuff and I can get feedback, but so far the limited feedback I have is positive. As for techno's though I was much more limited in page count, so all I could really do is lay the ground work for future expansions to build on but the base rules are built that a TM can be on even footing with a decker unless they decide to specialize in a different direction ... for example if you want to be a full on techinorigger you're going to have to the pay the price of specializing in that direction (you can you around with being a passable yet limited  rigger fairly easy)
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mcv

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« Reply #133 on: <05-13-19/1013:07> »
Dude spends all of his resources on fighting and everyone wants to be 90% of that for 1/10th the cost.
Sure, but what about for 99% of the cost?

Imagine a fight with two street samurai. One rolls 32 for initiative, the other rolls 31. The first will get two attacks on the other before the other has a chance to respond.

That's worse than 2nd edition, where these two would be alternating attacks before anyone else got a chance.

Of course street samurai should shine in combat. That's what they're for. But there's a limit to that. Over the course of a session, everybody should get their chance to shine in their thing, and with combat being a pretty big part of the game, not getting chance to do much for such a big part of the game would absolutely be a problem. SR6 tries to fix that by removing initiative passes, and that could be great, but if the result is that a combat specialist may even outshine another combat specialist who rolled one point lower on the one initiative roll they get per combat, I worry.

There no better judge than actual play of course. I hope they playtest this well.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #134 on: <05-13-19/1016:53> »
Well I hope 6e has better math then. the expected probability may have been based on a pc with 12-16 dice in their specialty but the math was for deckers to consistently fail with those numbers.