[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So I've been watching the Shadowcasters play-thru of shadowrun sixth world and I have to say I am not impressed with the game so far.

Opinions are never wrong, but I do feel like offering some of my own counter opinions and why I have them.

Some of my issues include:
1. The lack of armor as damage reduction seem to make even the simplest encounter deadly.
Add to this that the only real successes the team has had is when using things like invisibility to take the other-side by surprise.

Yes, it's an inherent change in paradigm from 5e.  As such, there are some who'll never like it.  You may well never prefer the change. OTOH, I'm optimistic about the new idea. Here's why: Optimized shadowrunners in 5e may as well have the "Immunity to Pistols and SMGs" critter power. Soak pools are too ridiculous for things like Fichetti 600s and HK-227s to ever deal any damage. If the NPCs are to actually challenge runners, they need Assault Rifles and APDS ammo.  Likewise, if the GM builds NPCs the way players build PCs, then runners won't be able to go into combat with anything less than that, either.

Taken as part of a whole (particularly where healing is less restricted) being hurt more often isn't necessarily a bad thing for game balance. Speaking of healing...

2. Healing using edge as a base is going to make the lack of armor as a DR even worse, since most a parties heavy hitters and front-line combatants are going to quickly be put out of action if all they can count on is their body for soak. As in previous edition depended on their armor to get them through.
I see most groups have ridiculous amounts of downtime after most missions.

Armor not contributing to a soak pool is NOT the same thing as being forced to depend on nothing but Body to soak.  Just sayin'.  Even in the SCN AP they were talking about some augmentations that are "don't leave home without them" if you're playing a runner who's going to be getting shot at.

3. The edge system in general seems to have been setup as this "super the game depends on it mechanic" and I don't see it living up to this faith the designers have put in it.
 a. It seem to be very hard to get more edge outside of direct combat (ex.The mages inability to generate much edge).
 b. If there is some advantages that are taking the place of armors DR I'm not seeing them.
 c. From what I can see edge gain is not as fast as they have seemed to imply.
 d. It seems like they are going with an " Edge can be substantiated for any mechanic" design, and I don't see this system as able to effectively replace most game mechanic
     they think it will.

I will grant that the SCN group hasn't done a good job of demonstrating the Edge mechanic, particularly in the ways you can gain edge outside combat.  IIRC it wasn't until the 3rd session that any of them noticed that the mage could gain edge simply by spending reagents while summoning spirits.  Bear in mind that like any group actually playing a TTRPG, they're inevitably going to deviate from the rulebook in order to keep a game moving rather than boring their audience by repeated dives back into the rulebook to find technically correct answers.  And this particular group of people are still feeling out the rules- the players didn't actually build anyone who could heal, so the greater accessibility of healing was moot... the GM wasn't familiar with all the 2nd order effects and threw a deadly encounter when he only meant to throw a softball... the players didn't fully grasp the actions available to them so they didn't take defensive actions to mitigate incoming damage (which in turn artificially exacerbated the impact of armor not helping on soak rolls...)  Etc.

[tenchi2a]

So I've been watching the Shadowcasters play-thru of shadowrun sixth world and I have to say I am not impressed with the game so far.

Opinions are never wrong, but I do feel like offering some of my own counter opinions and why I have them.

I would never say that an opinion is never wrong

Some of my issues include:
1. The lack of armor as damage reduction seem to make even the simplest encounter deadly.
Add to this that the only real successes the team has had is when using things like invisibility to take the other-side by surprise.

Yes, it's an inherent change in paradigm from 5e.  As such, there are some who'll never like it.  You may well never prefer the change. OTOH, I'm optimistic about the new idea. Here's why: Optimized shadowrunners in 5e may as well have the "Immunity to Pistols and SMGs" critter power. Soak pools are too ridiculous for things like Fichetti 600s and HK-227s to ever deal any damage. If the NPCs are to actually challenge runners, they need Assault Rifles and APDS ammo.  Likewise, if the GM builds NPCs the way players build PCs, then runners won't be able to go into combat with anything less than that, either.

Taken as part of a whole (particularly where healing is less restricted) being hurt more often isn't necessarily a bad thing for game balance. Speaking of healing...

I agree that armor was out of control in 5th, but I find that the writers over corrected for it in 6th. A rule as simple as armor adds 1/2 its rating to soak could have easily have fixed this issues and still could in 6th.

2. Healing using edge as a base is going to make the lack of armor as a DR even worse, since most a parties heavy hitters and front-line combatants are going to quickly be put out of action if all they can count on is their body for soak. As in previous edition depended on their armor to get them through.
I see most groups have ridiculous amounts of downtime after most missions.

Armor not contributing to a soak pool is NOT the same thing as being forced to depend on nothing but Body to soak.  Just sayin'.  Even in the SCN AP they were talking about some augmentations that are "don't leave home without them" if you're playing a runner who's going to be getting shot at.

This is not a good thing!
When you have "don't leave home without them" items/augments in the game then you have already failed in game design. Most games try to limit or eliminate these items/augments, not promote them as required.

3. The edge system in general seems to have been setup as this "super the game depends on it mechanic" and I don't see it living up to this faith the designers have put in it.
 a. It seem to be very hard to get more edge outside of direct combat (ex.The mages inability to generate much edge).
 b. If there is some advantages that are taking the place of armors DR I'm not seeing them.
 c. From what I can see edge gain is not as fast as they have seemed to imply.
 d. It seems like they are going with an " Edge can be substantiated for any mechanic" design, and I don't see this system as able to effectively replace most game mechanic
     they think it will.

I will grant that the SCN group hasn't done a good job of demonstrating the Edge mechanic, particularly in the ways you can gain edge outside combat.  IIRC it wasn't until the 3rd session that any of them noticed that the mage could gain edge simply by spending reagents while summoning spirits.  Bear in mind that like any group actually playing a TTRPG, they're inevitably going to deviate from the rulebook in order to keep a game moving rather than boring their audience by repeated dives back into the rulebook to find technically correct answers.  And this particular group of people are still feeling out the rules- the players didn't actually build anyone who could heal, so the greater accessibility of healing was moot... the GM wasn't familiar with all the 2nd order effects and threw a deadly encounter when he only meant to throw a softball... the players didn't fully grasp the actions available to them so they didn't take defensive actions to mitigate incoming damage (which in turn artificially exacerbated the impact of armor not helping on soak rolls...)  Etc.

This is another strike against the game as it is forcing use of a mechanic just to get the standard currency of the game. This is not a good thing.
Lets say I decide to make a support mage and I am not interested in controlling spirits. The idea that to be an effective member of the team is a major turn-off for me right there. You really can't defend a mechanic that forces you to do something that you did not design do as a benefit or even a good idea. One of the major reasons I enjoy Shadowrun so much is the flexibility that gives the player to create a character that they want to play and lets them play them the way they want. If you are telling me that to effective play the game at an average challenge level that you have to play the way it wants you to then in my book the writes have failed to understand what makes Shadowrun , Shadowrun.

As I see it the writes fell into the streamlining trap of trying to make everything new and different but simplified the rule into a non-playable mess. This is not unusual when a company tries to streamline their game and is normally fixed in the next edition, so I will wait to see if they either fix the issues or wait for 7th to come out.

[Michael Chandra]

Given how you already cast your judgement, and there's no way they'll do a full rewrite of SR6 before release, see you in six years?

[tenchi2a]

Given how you already cast your judgement, and there's no way they'll do a full rewrite of SR6 before release, see you in six years?

Wow, you'd think I kicked your dog or something?

First, let me say that nothing I have seen or said would warrant a full rewrite of the rules.
A simple change here or there would fix some or most of these issues.
As I said changing Armor to provide its DV to soak or 1/2 its DV if full value is to much would easily fix that issues.

Second, as for the Wild die, I don't see many players using it anyway so that not a big issues. It just seems like a waste of a rule as it will become an unused mechanic as players realize that the rewards do not outweigh the risks.

Third, all I think the edge system needs is an expanded list of options and a more developed mechanic for gain edge out side of direct confrontation combat/social/etc. If you want edge to take the place of armor there needs to be a recognizable and intuitive way for that to happen. Barring that, some examples of how players are meant to use it as an armor replacement would clear up some misconception if that is what it is. 
That said, as it stands right now, it just seems like armor is going to fall into the "this is the armor you have to have" trap and there will be no use for anything but that armor.

The issues is when I voiced my concerns I don't get someone telling me that I misunderstood it or that not how it works.
I get someone telling me that's how it's supposed to work and I just have to adjust to it.

As for most of the other things I have heard about the game like, Skills, Priorities, etc. I fine these changes to be a good thing and so do most of my players.
But the armor, must have items issues, etc.  overshadow the good changes.

In short I was not saying that the game needs a full rewrite for me to look at it again, I was just say that IMHO some of the rule need to be reconsidered or there intent explained for me to do that.

But if as you imply from you statement that the writes and you don't care what I think then, yes I will see you in 6 years.
 

[Ghost Rigger]

Yes, it's an inherent change in paradigm from 5e.  As such, there are some who'll never like it.  You may well never prefer the change. OTOH, I'm optimistic about the new idea. Here's why: Optimized shadowrunners in 5e may as well have the "Immunity to Pistols and SMGs" critter power. Soak pools are too ridiculous for things like Fichetti 600s and HK-227s to ever deal any damage. If the NPCs are to actually challenge runners, they need Assault Rifles and APDS ammo.  Likewise, if the GM builds NPCs the way players build PCs, then runners won't be able to go into combat with anything less than that, either.

Most players don't optimize that hard, and now an integral, perfectly functional mechanic is being discarded because of abuse that only happens at the bell-ends. I repeat, the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater.

Armor not contributing to a soak pool is NOT the same thing as being forced to depend on nothing but Body to soak.  Just sayin'.  Even in the SCN AP they were talking about some augmentations that are "don't leave home without them" if you're playing a runner who's going to be getting shot at.

"Runner who's going to be shot at"? You mean "every runner"?

Bear in mind that like any group actually playing a TTRPG, they're inevitably going to deviate from the rulebook in order to keep a game moving rather than boring their audience by repeated dives back into the rulebook to find technically correct answers.

I've had some thoughts about this recently. You know that environmental modifiers chart on pg 175 of the CRB? With the right gear, you can make almost half that chart go away and it's mechanically beneficial for the player to do so. It seems to me that "lots of complex things to look up" is a self-solving problem when you provide the means to bypass them entirely.

[FastJack]

Let's be sure to keep comments civilized, chummers

[tenchi2a]

I will grant that the SCN group hasn't done a good job of demonstrating the Edge mechanic, particularly in the ways you can gain edge outside combat.  IIRC it wasn't until the 3rd session that any of them noticed that the mage could gain edge simply by spending reagents while summoning spirits.  Bear in mind that like any group actually playing a TTRPG, they're inevitably going to deviate from the rulebook in order to keep a game moving rather than boring their audience by repeated dives back into the rulebook to find technically correct answers.  And this particular group of people are still feeling out the rules- the players didn't actually build anyone who could heal, so the greater accessibility of healing was moot... the GM wasn't familiar with all the 2nd order effects and threw a deadly encounter when he only meant to throw a softball... the players didn't fully grasp the actions available to them so they didn't take defensive actions to mitigate incoming damage (which in turn artificially exacerbated the impact of armor not helping on soak rolls...)  Etc.

I wanted to address this one on its own.
If this is the case then they are doing Shadowrun, the views, Catalyst game, etc. a major disservice.
They are in a unique position of having access to the Core rules before they have been released, so no one can fact check them and we have to take their word for this is how the game works.
If they take the attitude that lets fudge here and there and not show how the true rules work.
Then they are giving a false impression of the rules to the people that will buy them when they come out and may drive away some potential clients due to a misunderstanding of how the rule work.
In short, they should make every effort to insure that they are using the rules as write and if they need to dive into the rulebook every 5 mins I don't think the views will care as long as they are see the RAR so they can make up their minds if they want to play.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I will grant that the SCN group hasn't done a good job of demonstrating the Edge mechanic, particularly in the ways you can gain edge outside combat.  IIRC it wasn't until the 3rd session that any of them noticed that the mage could gain edge simply by spending reagents while summoning spirits.  Bear in mind that like any group actually playing a TTRPG, they're inevitably going to deviate from the rulebook in order to keep a game moving rather than boring their audience by repeated dives back into the rulebook to find technically correct answers.  And this particular group of people are still feeling out the rules- the players didn't actually build anyone who could heal, so the greater accessibility of healing was moot... the GM wasn't familiar with all the 2nd order effects and threw a deadly encounter when he only meant to throw a softball... the players didn't fully grasp the actions available to them so they didn't take defensive actions to mitigate incoming damage (which in turn artificially exacerbated the impact of armor not helping on soak rolls...)  Etc.

I wanted to address this one on its own.
If this is the case then they are doing Shadowrun, the views, Catalyst game, etc. a major disservice.
They are in a unique position of having access to the Core rules before they have been released, so no one can fact check them and we have to take their word for this is how the game works.
If they take the attitude that lets fudge here and there and not show how the true rules work.
Then they are giving a false impression of the rules to the people that will buy them when they come out and may drive away some potential clients due to a misunderstanding of how the rule work.
In short, they should make every effort to insure that they are using the rules as write and if they need to dive into the rulebook every 5 mins I don't think the views will care as long as they are see the RAR so they can make up their minds if they want to play.

Well, I never meant to say they were deliberately changing the rules. It really IS a thing to "not know what you don't know".  For example, they didn't deliberately ignore the edge-for-summoning -with-reagents rule, they just never realized it existed until a good ways in.

As far as I can tell, a clinical adherence to the rules isn't their primary concern. But that's not an indictment... literally the description that they're Actually Playing the game is in the name of the podcast. As I said upthread, every TTRPG game ever played (as opposed to demo'd) takes liberties with the rules. Sometimes deliberately, sometimes not.  Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know.

My take-away from watching the podcasts is watching the players and GM make mistakes and learning from them before I finally get to play.  (Wow, better make sure someone on the team takes the Biotech skill.  Wow, better remember to save actions to dodge or take cover. Wow, when I'm designing an encounter, remember to forget 5e...)

[adzling]

the game now plays like a push your limit board game, substituting the edge mechanic for any connection to reality.

melee and firearms damage codes are divorced from reality.

armor has no relevance to survival.

beyond complexity almost none of 5e's issues are resolved.

it's like the designers got distracted by inserting a board game mechanic into a ttrpg.

i'm expecting catalyst to start selling "Edge tokens" to keep track of everything with the tabletop eventually looking like a boardgame without a board.

our table has decided to skip 6e and stick with a home-modified version of 5e.

sad the opportunity was missed and instead of taking the best bits out of 5e and making the game more approachable the designers decided to take us into boardgame land.

[PiXeL01]

I think they already ARE selling edge tokens or as a planned release in August at least.

http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/2019/05/preview-the-lineup-of-shadowrun-sixth-edition-rulebooks-sourcebooks-and-game-aids/

[adzling]

boom!
board-less board game here we come

[Michael Chandra]

I think they already ARE selling edge tokens or as a planned release in August at least.

http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/2019/05/preview-the-lineup-of-shadowrun-sixth-edition-rulebooks-sourcebooks-and-game-aids/

My wife would kill me if I get even more dice, so I think I'll pass on these, but the GM Screen is a must for me!

Meanwhile, I should have plenty of tokens at hand that I can use for Edge. (Or use Edge cards.) Though I should definitely figure out a way to track the 'max 2 per round' thing...

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm envisioning placing 2 chips/tokens in front of each player at the start of a combat round.  Player takes them when earned, and can only end up grabbing a max of 2!

I'm sure the players will remind me and keep me front letting a NPC claim more than 2 per round.

[Ghost Rigger]

My take-away from watching the podcasts is watching the players and GM make mistakes and learning from them before I finally get to play.  (Wow, better make sure someone on the team takes the Biotech skill.  Wow, better remember to save actions to dodge or take cover. Wow, when I'm designing an encounter, remember to forget 5e...)

Every edition of Shadowrun has incentivized having first aid skills on the team and taking cover when under fire. Why are you talking about this like it's some kind of paradigm shift?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

My take-away from watching the podcasts is watching the players and GM make mistakes and learning from them before I finally get to play.  (Wow, better make sure someone on the team takes the Biotech skill.  Wow, better remember to save actions to dodge or take cover. Wow, when I'm designing an encounter, remember to forget 5e...)

Every edition of Shadowrun has incentivized having first aid skills on the team and taking cover when under fire. Why are you talking about this like it's some kind of paradigm shift?

I'm talking about it because they didn't do any of that in the Actual Play.  And I think the beatings the characters took have more to do with those things than the change of armor not contributing to soak pools.