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SR 6 info

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #480 on: <06-23-19/1349:00> »
A rigger/hacker combo was so ridiculously hard (excepting a Technorigger route) it wasn't worth doing in 5e.

6e may prove to be easier.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

kyoto kid

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« Reply #481 on: <06-23-19/2135:36> »
No one is leaning on me or other moderators, I'm pointing out the ToS on the boards because I don't want this to turn into Dumpshock.
...but does anyone go there anymore?  I signed in a few days ago just to see what take on 6e was there, only to find quite a few threads with the newest response being months up to even a year old.
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #482 on: <06-23-19/2136:29> »
The only thing simple in 5e D&d is the proficiency bonus being universal. Spells, powers, multi classing etc keep it fairly complex. D&D is the big dog because it’s D&D.

But yes there is a trend toward simplification. And yes edge looks like a mechanic to represent being on a roll or having momentum. None of which explains armor not soaking, strength not adding to the DV of melee weapons. It does explains how they handled situational modifiers in combat even if it was a bad choice.
...+1
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incrdbil

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« Reply #483 on: <06-23-19/2212:52> »
Yeah i'm with you PMark, I like my games crunchy.

Crunch can work with simplification if you carefully consider mechanics and internal consistency and logic.

Exactly. And, I might add, preserves certain core qualities of an established game.

This seems to be failing on many fronts. The simplicity really doesnt seem that greatly reduced, there are some glaring differences to say the least both in performance, bu in character roles and, most importantly 'feel". Thsi edge mechanic jusr looks like a horrible attempt to glom onto a trend and fumbling its execution





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Instead they worked in secret with minimal outside input. Looking at what resulted it's clear there was an echo chamber of self-reinforcing feedback that cut 6e off from what shadowrun has traditionally been.

And now we have armor that doesn't stop bullets any better than a bikini, melee attack that don't factor in strength at all, etc.

it does seem there was a terrible disconnect, and a desire to make something they wanted as opposed to what their gaming community was expecting.

I wish there was a giant emergency "stop" button in time to save this edition, but I'm thinking its too late for them to change now.

tenchi2a

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« Reply #484 on: <06-24-19/0100:33> »
Yeah i'm with you PMark, I like my games crunchy.

Crunch can work with simplification if you carefully consider mechanics and internal consistency and logic.

Exactly. And, I might add, preserves certain core qualities of an established game.

This seems to be failing on many fronts. The simplicity really doesnt seem that greatly reduced, there are some glaring differences to say the least both in performance, bu in character roles and, most importantly 'feel". Thsi edge mechanic jusr looks like a horrible attempt to glom onto a trend and fumbling its execution





Quote
Instead they worked in secret with minimal outside input. Looking at what resulted it's clear there was an echo chamber of self-reinforcing feedback that cut 6e off from what shadowrun has traditionally been.

And now we have armor that doesn't stop bullets any better than a bikini, melee attack that don't factor in strength at all, etc.

it does seem there was a terrible disconnect, and a desire to make something they wanted as opposed to what their gaming community was expecting.

I wish there was a giant emergency "stop" button in time to save this edition, but I'm thinking its too late for them to change now.

First, it is never to late to stop/delay a project until it is in the public hands, First rule of good business.
Second is, delays are preferred over a PR nightmare.
Third is, The customer is always right.
Two many companies have forgotten this in the last few years, FFG, Modiphius, Blizzard, Bethesda, etc.

The truth is that until the books are actually printed they exist in a print layout PDF form that with some work can be altered.
This may cause a month or two delay depending on how far along they are but can be done.

So the true question is, are the books already printed.
If not then It would be in CGL best interest to get a full account of what their players want and not just what marketing tells them is trending before they go forward with 6th.
 

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #485 on: <06-24-19/0118:46> »
I suspect they are already at the printer or printed. Best case they come out with run n gun fast with a ton of fix it rules.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #486 on: <06-24-19/0236:52> »
A rigger/hacker combo was so ridiculously hard (excepting a Technorigger route) it wasn't worth doing in 5e.

6e may prove to be easier.
I'd like that, there's a few character concepts I'd like to try out. As very basics I'm guessing you 'only' need 4 skills: Piloting, Engineering, Cracking, Electronics. Stealth would be a nice addition. Hopefully Skills B is enough, allowing for Resources A. Reaction, Logic, Intuition, Willpower is definitely MAD though, so even if you were to cut corners with Skills C and Attributes B you'll be forced to take a hit somewhere. I suspect I'd personally sacrifice Willpower, making matrix combat very dangerous. Then just grab Mundane whatever.

(My Social Street Sam concept is far worse off: Close Combat, Firearms, Stealth, Perception, Con, Influence, not even mentioning Athletics. And he was using Attributes A in SR5, which was definitely needed for that MAD build... Logic and Strength were the only possible dumpstats.)
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Singularity

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« Reply #487 on: <06-24-19/0251:11> »
A rigger/hacker combo was so ridiculously hard (excepting a Technorigger route) it wasn't worth doing in 5e.

That was one of the two routes I was looking at (the other being cyberware, of course). Unfortunately from talk here on the forums, it seems that the technomancer stuff doesn't come out until the end of the edition now?

incrdbil

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« Reply #488 on: <06-24-19/0258:32> »
I suspect they are already at the printer or printed. Best case they come out with run n gun fast with a ton of fix it rules.

 When the fix is "dump many of the core rules and most of the gear stats" that's just not going to happen. 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #489 on: <06-24-19/0300:09> »
A rigger/hacker combo was so ridiculously hard (excepting a Technorigger route) it wasn't worth doing in 5e.

That was one of the two routes I was looking at (the other being cyberware, of course). Unfortunately from talk here on the forums, it seems that the technomancer stuff doesn't come out until the end of the edition now?
What they mean is an expanded book with primary focus Technomancers.

To indicate with a VERY rough summary, in SR5 we basically had 3 sets of 'core' books: Core itself, Extended Core, and the extra-detailed stuff. The Extended Core pretty much came out within 2 years and had additional stuff for running/lifestyles/etc, guns, vehicles, magic, hacking (including some TM stuff), that kind of books. Then later on we got books that provided even more options, such as really nasty magic stuff, special TM, etc.
(There's also setting books, adventures and a few 'aimed at specific playstyle' books but let's ignore that for now.)

Data Trails (hacking book) didn't have lots of TM stuff, but it did come with extra Complex Forms, Submersions, info about Resonance Realms and such.
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Singularity

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« Reply #490 on: <06-24-19/0542:52> »
A rigger/hacker combo was so ridiculously hard (excepting a Technorigger route) it wasn't worth doing in 5e.

That was one of the two routes I was looking at (the other being cyberware, of course). Unfortunately from talk here on the forums, it seems that the technomancer stuff doesn't come out until the end of the edition now?
What they mean is an expanded book with primary focus Technomancers.

To indicate with a VERY rough summary, in SR5 we basically had 3 sets of 'core' books: Core itself, Extended Core, and the extra-detailed stuff. The Extended Core pretty much came out within 2 years and had additional stuff for running/lifestyles/etc, guns, vehicles, magic, hacking (including some TM stuff), that kind of books. Then later on we got books that provided even more options, such as really nasty magic stuff, special TM, etc.
(There's also setting books, adventures and a few 'aimed at specific playstyle' books but let's ignore that for now.)

Data Trails (hacking book) didn't have lots of TM stuff, but it did come with extra Complex Forms, Submersions, info about Resonance Realms and such.

Ah, Ok.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #491 on: <06-24-19/0549:47> »
Incidentally, in SR5 the rigger-echo for Technomancers was already in Core. If SR6 doesn't, it can be easily houseruled, but we'll see if it's in Core.
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Singularity

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« Reply #492 on: <06-24-19/0556:12> »
Incidentally, in SR5 the rigger-echo for Technomancers was already in Core. If SR6 doesn't, it can be easily houseruled, but we'll see if it's in Core.

What about the stereams though, and what's its name? The Techno version of the magician patron spirit thingies? Were those in there as well?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #493 on: <06-24-19/0604:10> »
Streams were in the second Matrix book, Kill Code. I'm not experienced with them but from the sound of them they're a bit alike the Adept Ways, which were in the first Magic book, Street Grimoire. Paragons (Mentor Spirits for TMs) were also in Kill Code.

We'll have to wait if they hit in the matrix book, and whenever that hits, but that kind of thing falls under the extra-depth specialization expansion books bring. I wouldn't expect it to be worked out in Core, especially since they went from 480 pages in SR5 to 300 in SR6.
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RiggerBob

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« Reply #494 on: <06-24-19/0648:01> »
But the problem wasn't that we had to wait till Kill Code for important stuff, but that it took them all these years to clarify/change things from Core. Why did we have to wait for a second matrix book to finally be told how technomancers with datajacks work or to get the needlessly cumbersome cross-grid penalties removed?

Had they just answered basic questions and published errata in time, technomancers would be playable without much problems with just the core rules...
It can be done fine, just don't screw up in the first book again.
« Last Edit: <06-24-19/0651:36> by RiggerBob »